Welcome to Between the Threads, a podcast exploring the threads that connect us, story, memory, identity, and meaning, and how they weave the fabric of peace in our lives and communities. Between the Threads is a joint initiative between Kahanee and Narratives. Kahanee is a nonprofit organization that amplifies storytelling for peace building, and Narratives is an award-winning planning and design firm based in Winnipeg, Canada. On today's episode of Between the Threads, we speak to Desirée Theriault and Conor Smith. Desirée is an award-winning designer, a landscape architect, and a partner at Narratives. As a Metis designer, Desirée's professional journey is deeply rooted in trauma-informed experiences, combining Indigenous social, cultural, and spiritual resurgence to honor memories and stories. Her primary expertise revolves around the intersection of trauma-informed design, memorialization, Indigenous cultural reclamation, and ecological stewardship. Conor Smith is a senior partner and senior planner at Narratives, specializing in land relations planning and community engagement for policy, infrastructure, and physical development projects. Conor's practice is centered on incorporating linguistic and sociological analytical tools to uncover the connections between people and the places they live in. On this episode, we go behind the scenes on why the collaboration between Kahanee and Narratives In particular, how did Narratives come to be and what it means in today's world? What really stood out for me in this conversation was the idea of relational learning. And what does that mean for stories? What does it mean to actually have a difficult conversation that bridges the personal story with the communal story? Enjoy. Cool. Yeah. OK. All right, so we'll get started. um Who is Narratives? I'll maybe invite Conor Sure, thank you. I like that you started off with who and not what being with its own personality. The story, the story of Narratives, I think for me would start um I guess I'll go back to before Narratives was founded. um My ah education, my background is in initially in political science and political theory. um And, you know, my academic career eventually took me towards community planning. um I would say that that foundation sort of got me interested in questions about, sort of intractable difficult questions about um society, um questions of justice, questions of equality, those kinds of freedom. um And um the work that we were doing where I met ah you, Somia, was at a big engineering firm. We were doing a lot of the kind of technical work that in many ways I think glossed over some of those difficult questions. um There were procedures that were efficient and they were designed to avoid a lot of these questions or to at least maybe acknowledge them but not engage with them. We often say at Narratives that we learned a lot of good lessons from that experience working in that context. um Learned a lot about ways to do certain things and how not to do other things. um Narratives is, I think, a response to a lot of that lacking. um It's an opportunity, I think, to wrestle. Certainly the technical components are always a part of that. um In my background as a community planner, we're always trying to the boundaries of what it is that we're doing. think in this space, we get to test the dynamics of the discipline in unique ways that maybe we don't, other practitioners don't. um um But yeah, I think it's a response to be able to engage with some of those questions more meaningfully. You know, we've talked about the dynamics and ethics of um obtaining consent for doing work in very sensitive contexts and communities. What is that consent for? What does it mean um to be truly ethical? Not occupational ethics or institutional ethics, but what is right and good? um you know, thinking about how to advocate for a client that, you know, may be disempowered. You know, we say that we're trying to find opportunities for those who have had their voices silenced or been marginalized in some way to try to find a way to ah turn up the volume for them, just to lift up and support. Maybe I'll, at the risk of rambling and going on and on. We're all of a rambling. um We ended a good uh exercise to identify a slogan, a motto, and we ended up with, walk with you. I think because that sort of supports this. What Narratives is intended to be its mission is to uh to focus on those sort of intractable questions, bring them into the spotlight for the purposes of lifting our clients up and supporting them. I love that. Thank you. What stands up for me is the turning up the volume piece. And I think that's a great, great expression. Who is Narratives? Well, okay, well, following up from Conor, I feel like it's going to be hard for me to top that. What I think about... in terms of who is Narratives, I always go back to, you know, something you said, Somia which is the first time I met you, you were like, it's called Narratives because story was taken. uh And so for me, when I think of who is Narratives at the core is it's all about story. It's about the way that story work is embedded in our identities. It's embedded in our livelihoods. And we work with community. So kind of taking a step back here in terms of who is Narratives. I feel like Conor got to a lot of this, but a lot of the work that we do is with community. And what we've noticed along the way is that story is essential to talking about community, talking about culture, talking about the environments that we grow up in. And Um, as a landscape architect, a land designer for me, that is an incredibly under, underrepresented part of design, of planning, of impact assessment, conflict, conflict, uh, transformation. We don't talk about story, but it actually, it's one of the primary ways that we connect to each other, you know? So. When I think of who is Narratives, I think of story as a core part of the way we work. And that has led us to this gang of misfits from all different backgrounds. I like that. Turn off the volume, gang of misfits. That's a good, yep. And have come together to really utilize story as a way to unpack how to do meaningful, thoughtful work with community, uh with organizations, and to build through that for more for future generations and also for the health and well-being of community at the end of the day too. I love that. I love that. I think, you know, when I think of this collaboration between Narratives and Kahanee, it feels like the right time for it. So everything that Narratives does is through story. Story is such an important method of how we bring people together, how we turn up the volume with with different individuals involved, with different communities involved. And then Kahanee is here to amplify that method as a mechanism to bring many, many communities together in the work that we do. I love that. um Why a podcast? Why are we here? I'll them this very amazing decor, great tea. Yeah, great tea, great company, good dialogue. I mean, I think that's kind of like the essence of Narratives and Connie. That's like bringing us all together. Yeah. What do you think, Conor? Yeah, I'm embarrassed. didn't say story and actually reflect on that in my response. it. Um, but I, you know, I think, you know, okay, why a podcast? think, I think it speaks to you. Well, narrative is different from Narratives, right? I think, I think it points to the you know, plurality of experiences that people will have facing the same event or the same series of events. So, you know, we're saying something, we're saying something about the presence or the importance of a plurality, a multiple, multiple perspectives, multiple Narratives, multiple versions of something that come from that, that, that lived experience. So, You know, having a podcast is an opportunity to explore those perspectives. um I like that the question was framed at a podcast we were invited to. So we're speculating here. multiple ways of knowing. Also, reminds me, Conor, when you were talking about multiple perspectives. So the first ever logo, I don't know how many people know this, the first ever logo of Narratives that I designed. I forget what was that you opened Word and you copy? Smart art. Smart art. No, was it smart art or clip art? can't remember. Clip art? clip art. So I remember thinking I want it to be something that brings different perspectives together, something that embodies it. And the only thing that could come up was carpet. And I couldn't draw a carpet. I ended up drawing this like quilt. So the first logo ever of Narratives is very complicated, would literally not pass our own design standards at this point. People would laugh at me, but was this very complicated quilt. And the idea there was something that brings different perspectives together, each on its own being very different. But yet when they come together, they create something, something beautiful. I love that a quilt of different different patterns and systems that come together. Yeah. I feel like we need to frame find that logo oh and frame it. I got it somewhere for sure. no. I thought I destroyed all evidence of that. Okay. So it's great. So we're going to switch gears here and instead of asking people, tell me about yourself. I'd love to hear how someone else would describe you. And I recognize there's many different people who would describe you differently. But give us the Coles note version here. How would someone describe Desirée? Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay. Well, I think um I've been called very warm. That is true. That I bring a lot of warmth into conversation and dialogue. And that has always resonated with me. It feels like a very lovely compliment that I, uh, yeah, I I'm like, oh wow. Okay. That's, I really appreciate that. So I take that and I take it to heart and I really appreciate that. I also have been described as a, uh, dad jokester. Like I do lot of dad jokes. Uh, probably not to the best of my abilities. We need to see this side of desert. Some land, some don't land. Um, yeah, it's, it comes in ebbs and flows. I gotta be in a flow state. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Um, and then lastly, I think, just, I've also been told that I'm, very kind, uh, so kindhearted. And for me, um, kindness is, is something that, you know, I, I like to root into, I think. m Through my work, I've found that humility goes a long way. so rooting down through a kind heart, through kind heartedness m can go a long way and it allows us to have meaningful conversations on the road. You are also an incredible foodie. Yeah, do. Yes, that's true. Food makes you happy. Food makes me happy. cannot go wrong with food. New restaurant, I will know. I'll also add to that, Des, I remember when I first met you, feeling that warmth and feeling that kindness just radiate from you. And I also remember thinking after like you seemed and are of course incredibly grounded in who you are and your identity. And that really stood out for me as someone that I definitely wanted to work with. I'm glad because I think I was so nervous. was probably... I do remember that too. You were very nervous. Yeah, I still remember that visual on screen. It was a virtual. Yes, it was. Yeah. Wow. Conor, how would someone describe you? If they knew the real Conor. The real me. Yeah, they'd say I don't like talking about myself. Which is why we're asking you what they say about you. That's... Great misdirection for sure. First, I'll say that's definitely true. Everything you said, I think it's accurate because people know that this is your tagline to take good care when you sign up on anything. true. I actually almost signed off an email with that the other day and I'm like, that's so Des. Wow, okay. I haven't even noticed this about myself. So thank you. how would people describe me? This is tricky. um great chef. Getting better, improving chef, reformed chef, not a chef for the record. a chef. No avocados. I think, um, people would probably describe me as, I'm pretty fun to be around. think I like to, I like to have, um, I like to have a lot of different things on the go. Um, my partner would call me, has called me an auto didact, which is someone who likes to learn self-taught things, which is a very polite way of saying, I like to start things and, you know, get sucked into them. Yeah. Lots of interests. I'm a, I'm a carpenter, a plumber, an electrician, all to my detriment. And I've had to have, you know, carpenters and plumbers all come to fix the stuff that I've done. So I like to try new things. I like to learn new things. I can remember, I have good recall of really nerdy, obscure stuff, which doesn't really serve me. can remember the dialogue to a movie I saw 10 years ago, 50 That's amazing. But you are a bit of an encyclopedia of random information. Yeah, I do go to Conor for the info. Yeah, it's not useful typically. Well, unless we're going on trivia, then yeah. Have you won any trivia? Not as much as I should, given this pretty cleavity, but I do enjoy trivia too. um I think I've been described as. ah Loyal and humble. that's nice. How nice is it for people to describe you in nice ways? I mean, of course we're filtering out the not nice. That's right. Yeah. We're very selectively sharing the only nice things that people say about us. That's awesome. So what, we're all about stories here. What makes a good story? What are some of the ingredients of a good story? Dez, I'm going to ask you first. Hey, yeah, this is something that I reflect on a lot, surprisingly. I would say for me, what makes a good story is hearing it from somebody's own voice. I think that always draws me into a story. The way somebody is interpreting something, I usually like hang on every word that somebody writes about their own journey and how they've interpreted their identity um through their memories um or through their environments. And so for me, that perspective plays a big role for me in terms of what makes a good story. And then I also think like a light touch of emotion, like a roller coaster of emotions is also something I find fascinating and having these kind of mosaics of different um ways that somebody comes to understand their place. um within their memory or within whatever they might be experiencing, I find that really fascinating. So I'm really drawn to that. And I've always felt that, you know, this is why I read a lot of biographies, but I also read a lot of science fiction, which draws on a lot of different characters coming in with different perspectives. yeah, I love that. I love that so much about, um, we often think about, you know, what makes when we think about what makes a good story and there's all these different pieces to it. what you touched on for me goes to the heart of the story, which is the storyteller themselves and whose story is being told and who is telling that story. And I would say that's so important in the work that Narratives does as well is, you know, yes, we can tell the story and sometimes we're invited to be the ones sharing that story. In other cases, We're asked to hold space for people to tell their own story and our job is to simply amplify that story and hold that container, that story to be told in as many ways as possible. So the story itself is just as important as the storyteller. Yeah, I love that. I feel like you've said it much more eloquently than I could have, but that's exactly it. think that connection and that resonance with the storyteller goes a long way. And it does always make me think about, who is behind this story? Who is telling this story? And where does this story come from? It's really... For me, it's one of the ways that I ground myself in reading and I just find it a really powerful way of connecting with the author. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing, but I'm very much in the space of relational learning and I find that that connection with the storyteller goes a long way for me. you, Conor, what makes a good story? I think I think stories in general are good stories. Should reveal something about... ah I think they're windows into the universal from the particular. it should tell you something about the human experience um through your own place in it. So a lot of times you imagine yourself in the story. What would you have done? Sometimes it's a character or it's a situation that you just absolutely would not, maybe it's abhorrent what you're reading and you can't place yourself in it. But all of this is to shine some light on the breadth of what a human being can experience. And in many cases, this is something that you're never going to have the opportunity to experience, at least quite in this way. um But maybe you will encounter something like this in the future. m you will have had a chance to conceptualize the experience. yeah, think it's the being able to see something that is universal um through something that is necessarily particular, your own interpretation. What did you get out of the story? I think stories also should serve a purpose or several, maybe several purposes. There's got to be a point. Something that we've encountered before is, um the TRC um Truth and Reconciliation Commission, when they were hearing testimony, many of those testimonies began with creation stories. I know that um it was often, I think, discussed, or maybe this is what people were thinking, was like, well, why... Like, this is irrelevant. Can you talk about your experience? And so much of, as I understand, as I've learned, so much of the reason for telling the experience, the reason for explaining the meaning behind something is to go back to the origins, right? It's critical. Stories have their own, you know, for the people who are sharing this, ah stories have their own language, stories have their own life. and they start when they start. um So the point to a story, it should be focused on, I think, providing that glimpse into the human experience or that glimpse into an opportunity for you to imagine what um you would have done or what... how you would have reacted or to put yourself into an experience that you otherwise could not possibly experience. I love that. And for me, speaks to a couple of things that come up for me in listening to you both is ultimately what makes a good story is what mirrors what is considered a human experience. Whether that's You know, as human beings, can switch quite easily from feeling calm and collected to absolutely raging in traffic or not in traffic, just raging. you know, those are parts of the human experience. in a story, that's what I think we resonate to is where we see a little bit of ourselves in the story or that evokes curiosity in us as to how we would, how we would have been in that story. I've always struggled with this idea of not relating. And I know, Des, we talk a lot about that and when we think about trauma-informed work and what does that mean? Trauma-informed storytelling, trauma-informed dialogue, and it's always like, relate. And I've really wrestled with that because I've always felt like my responsibility as a story listener is to, yes, hold space. And also if the storytellers story pulls me in to let that happen, because that is a sacred relationship that is forming in that time where the storyteller is sort of being able to, you know, reach into my soul and pull little parts of it along with their story. So I think to me like that is really important when we think of, think of that story. And Conor, when you were talking about know, it should have a purpose. I was laughing because it reminded me of, you know, growing up, would always, um, someone would tell a story and I don't know if this was the case for you and it would always end with the moral of the story is needed to be said. And then as if it needed to be said, but also I remember often the moral. of the story will be told. And I feel like, but that's not what I got on the story. Yeah. Total different interpretation. I I had, picked up on something completely different. So it was fascinating that one, the story doesn't necessarily just have one moral or one lesson. And I think that is also the beauty of a story is it can, there could be so many things that come out of a story. Yeah. And does, I want to come back to, You spoke a little bit about relational learning. Tell me more about that. Yeah, I find that um actually just even building off of what you've said that yes, we shouldn't relate, like it's our core nature to relate. of course in trauma informed work, you're not going to jump in and start sharing your own story. exactly. um But for me, when I think of relational learning and relationality, it's actually a really powerful mechanism. And it goes back to Conor's point about the breadth of the human experience. draws on points that are universal for all of us and that allow us to build more compassion towards each other. And um also when we think about relational learning, I am being told a story from a storyteller's perspective and perhaps that storyteller does something completely different than I would have done. But guess what? That gets me thinking about, okay, I would have never interpreted this way. And also to think about, you know, the moral of the story is X, but guess what? I didn't, I didn't take that away. But actually those are the most interesting discussions. It's how people have interpreted it. And that's part of relational learning. connecting with how people have interpreted or perceived something so that you can actually draw on the uniqueness of everybody that's coming to the table and have a bit of that relationality that pulls us to learn something new, learn something different along the way. And it also helps us understand the why. Conor, you had talked, you had shared about, you know, some of the some of the commentary that was emerging in Canada during the TRC testimonies and people saying, well, what's the relevance of the origin story? And yet when we're watching a show on Netflix and all of a sudden it jumps to a scene that helps us understand the backstory of someone, we're so intrigued. We're like, that makes sense. And ultimately I think every story should evoke that sense of, I wonder why, I wonder what happened to them. I wonder what else was going on in their lives that resulted in this one culmination of a scene, if you will. So absolutely the relevance of all of our origin stories is so important and finding ways of bringing that into the conversation in a lot of ways is really ultimately what I think helps us see the humanity. in each other. So really excited about this collaboration. I love that we're going to be bringing some really interesting people together on between the threads to talk about some of the deeper conversations. And Conor, you started. today by sharing like, how Narratives came to be is a little bit from that lacking of the discomfort really of touching some of those difficult topics. What do you hope will come out of this collaboration? And I guess specifically, what do you hope people get out of this? What do listeners get out of this collaboration? Do you want to answer that first Conor? Sure. Yeah. So I think Narratives, it's in the name, it's to embrace a context where we acknowledge these multiple points of view, we seek them out and recognize them. um We do work to support our clients in this space, where we're addressing these difficult things, um or this, you know, this environment where we recognize there are multiple, there are these um different stories of this experience um together. um You know, as planners, often say that we're process people, which means the outcome of something is not necessarily, ah is not what ought to be driving the work. It's about going through a plan for how you're going to approach something as balanced, as ethically, as um effectively as you can. So we're in this space where we're, um working alongside or working inside these different Narratives. And by the way, you know, the technical disciplinary narrative is one among, um you know, a lived experience in a community or something like that. know, Kahanee is an opportunity, I think, to um think through what we do with this a little differently. Narratives is focused on answering a technical question or providing a good or service or an asset to do that lifting up to turn up the volume. think think Connie might take it a step further in thinking through well, how do you reconcile these, know, a narrative, a narrative, a story about somebody, this informs one's identity. um And, you know, there's a lot of power in that. I mean, many identities are predicated on into the detriment of another group or something like that, right? Not all these stories, just to have a story or a perspective does not necessarily mean it's a harmonious thing, but yet it still constitutes an identity. So how do we move on or how do we move the conversation forward? When we have these different identities, oftentimes they can be characterized by conflict. You might have two groups. that um have very entrenched identities that are predicated on opposition to the other, right? um And this gets even more complicated when there are all these other um Narratives around. sometimes we're called in Narratives to address these things directly if it's conflict resolution or to find a way for everybody to work well together. down the road if we're writing a community plan or something like that, there might be a solution. But having these conversations is intended to perhaps break down some of those barriers or to reimagine the other, capital O, um in a different way. Maybe to reconstitute an identity differently. yeah, Narratives is working in this space, but think Connie can find a way to... advance maybe a better, kinder way uh of thinking about oneself and one's place. Yeah, I really appreciate that. It reminds me, just today we were over lunch having this conversation with someone about just going through the sheer volume of events and gatherings that are focused on peace. And, you know, peace days and peace events and peace dialogues and peace conversations and Music for peace and food for peace and all of these. And at one point I thought, my goodness, like there's so much happening in this space and yet we don't have peace. And it then as conversations go meandered into, you know, there's a difference between getting together and having a good conversation. Truly though a good conversation stays with you. You remember it. You may bring it up every now and then. But really it's a bit of a difficult, challenging conversation that stays with you. And in a lot of ways, when we bring people together who are in conflict, who have actively or subconsciously othered the other person, it's that difficult conversation that can help them see the humanity in each other. And I think both from, and there's technical ways to do that. There's important methods that can lead to that. And then there's the taking those conversations forward. Yeah, go for it. I'd love to ask Somia, why is that the objective of having a conversation to see humanity in someone else if we're talking about resolving conflict? is it important to see the humanity I mean, this is somewhat rhetorical. I'm not a total monster, I think it's the meat of the issue. What is it about seeing someone as... you know, an agent, a person, what is it that changes conflict? Why does that change conflict? think so. Wow, we could we could talk about this for a long time. a couple of thoughts that come up for me. One, I think when we we have so many of these systems of oppression that have perpetuated a sense of superiority in certain groups and inferior inferiority in other groups. So if we if we're in conversation with someone, we're probably subconsciously assuming if we are smarter than them, we need we know more than them or or or or. And when we have a conversation that is fundamentally rooted in a sense of I know better or I am better. it changes the conversation. You're probably not taking what the person is saying with that deep sense of respect and reverence that that person's wisdom deserves. And as soon as we see the humanity in someone, that shifts a conversation. I think that induces a sense of humility in the self to say, like actually what you're saying makes sense to me. And all of a sudden it levels of playing field so we can have a very human to human conversation. So that what I say is landing with you or has a chance of landing with you with that same degree of understanding and respect and so on. So I think it just creates opens a bit of a gateway for us to have a conversation that is rooted in a sense of equality than an inherent sense of I know better than you. So hence everything I do is justified. Hence everything I say must be right. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like that's exactly what this podcast is all about. It's about bringing, bringing compassion, a little more compassion to our world and also, you know, reflecting on, on what Conor said to just, you know, I reflect on my own journey through landscape architecture. and reflecting on um how framed it is in a specific culture and Western knowledge and um how limiting that can be as well. through these conversations, we can actually understand and push the boundaries of how we might interpret different situations that we might come across, different spaces that we've come across. um And dialogue is really powerful at unpacking that side of humanity that we often don't get to unpack and or our egos don't allow us to unpack. that's really like when I hear us talking about this, that's my hope in this podcast is to be able to bring that forward and to have those rich conversations. even if they might be uncomfortable conversations that they give us those opportunities to think out loud and push those boundaries. Yeah, I really appreciate that, Des, because in a way, this collaboration between Kahanee and Narratives is an opportunity to tie the technical to the, you know, differently technical, and also tie the abstract to the ground reality a little bit. There's one thing to produce a community plan. And yes, it may be the most amazing community plan that's out there. But if it doesn't have the buy-in, if it doesn't have the understanding, if it's not coming from, like ground up from people themselves, then it'll just sit on the shelf. And we talk about this a lot at Narratives. What does that actually mean for that community plan to emerge from within? and then have the kind of resonance with everybody, have the kind of pride with everybody so they can see themselves reflected in that work. And I think that's really the opportunity here is for us to be able to bring people who work in these really incredible spaces in community, in organizations, in the global arena, in many, different technical ways. And how do stories really touch? them and how they bring parts of themselves into the work and also how do the stories of others influence who they are. So really how do we come together as humans. With that, any other closing wisdom for us? That's a lot of pressure. know. It's like, bring up the wisdom. Turn up. Turn up the volume. Turn up the volume. We've said that five times in this last 30 minutes. I know it'll be part of the... Yeah, we'll edit a couple of occurrences out. What are you looking forward to? I think this is going to be... um You know, I think that. We fall into, mean, just by the nature of being in consulting, being at Narratives, ah there are certain modes that we fall into, project-based, right? ah We have relationships, of course, with our clients, constantly talking sort of outside of the context of our project. This is what helps us sort of identify how we can support a community is always having those conversations. But for the most part, you know, We are, this is a forest for the trees kind of thing I'm going to try to wrap this around to, but we're often focused on specific trees. Yeah, focused on specific trees when it comes to what it is we're um directed towards. I think this is going to be really important to start to step back a little bit to see the broader context. I think what you described, Somia, in why seeing humanity in another, Conflict is abounds. Conflict is everywhere. um Many different kinds of people, many different identities, many different circumstances. um It's a soup. It's a chaotic, of intractable thing. um So the opportunity to take a step back there and see transformations that can happen, I think is going to be really valuable, especially for us when we're thinking when we're too close to the trees to see the forest. um I think it would be really useful to see how those elements of cognitive dissonance start to work their way into um neat pictures of the world and how upsetting that is a real positive thing. um I think we need reminders like that, especially in this today with what's going on. I mean, this is, guess you could say that anytime in history, but we're living today. So what's going on in the world today? think those reminders about the contingency of things and how people can change and um the way that people do is by talking. Yeah. Let's talk together. I love that. think that encapsulates it really well. um Yeah. I'm echoing all that and also excited to be able to just listen. Uh, throughout the process and like Conor said, see the forest, uh, beyond, beyond just the trees. think that's a really great way of putting it. I'm also just excited to unpack what story means to people, know, what does story mean at the end of the day and what is a story? Um, and there are so many ways to interpret it. and that becomes really important in how we. we connect with each other down the road. So I'm really looking forward to that and I'm looking forward to listening. Thank you. Well, thank you both for joining us today and for sharing all your incredible thoughts and ideas. Thank you very much. Thank you for having us. Thank you.