Welcome to Between the Threads, a podcast exploring the threads that connect us, story, memory, identity, and meaning, and how they weave the fabric of peace in our lives and communities. Between the Threads is a joint initiative between Kahanee and Narratives. Kahanee is a nonprofit organization that amplifies storytelling for peace building, and Narratives is an award-winning planning and design firm based in Winnipeg, Canada. Welcome. Welcome everyone to episode number four of Between the Threads. Today we are sitting down with Devon Clunis Devon served 29 years with the Winnipeg police service, retiring as chief of police in 2016. With a reputation for professionalism, integrity, and problem solving, he has inspired much change in policing both in Canada and the United States. Adept at building stakeholder relationships and navigating political landscapes, Devon led the development of the Inspectorate of Policing in Ontario, the first of its kind in Canada. In addition to co-authoring two children's books on equity, diversity, and inclusion, Devon's reflective autobiography, one, which we'll be touching on a little bit today, a story of hope in our time addresses many of the social challenges facing society and calls us to create a more cohesive social climate. Devon, welcome to episode number four. How are you doing today? I am doing great. Thank you for the invitation to be here with you, Somia Awesome. So we're going to start. There's so many questions I want to ask you. So I'll try to pace myself. But I like to start from the beginning, so we'll go way back in time. We'll stick to this lifetime though. Absolutely. We can't account for anything that happened before we got here. You were born in Jamaica. Yes. Tell us what Devon was like growing up in Jamaica before you came to Canada. You know, I think about that quite often. I grew up in a little place and I always love saying the name of it. It makes me feel good just saying Harmony Vale. That's the name of my community. like many young people that you'll find in Jamaica and probably elsewhere around the world. I live with my grandparents. Didn't really know my mother until probably age 12. But growing up in Jamaica, I felt like I had everything that I needed. We had no electricity, no running water. We walked everywhere. And a lot of people would say somebody like that would be disadvantaged, but I never felt like I was lacking anything. And so I just had a really beautiful childhood growing up in Harmonyville. Awesome. I loved reading about your grandparents in your book. And one of the lines that really stuck with me was where you talk about how parents give us birth, but it's grandparents who give us life. yes. And I just loved reading that. Tell me more about that. What does that mean to you? Yeah, and probably for myself, just because of the way I grew up with my grandparents, that line means a lot more to me than it probably would for an average child who grew up with their parents and maybe just saw the grandparents every now and then. As I said, for me, my grandparents, the first 11 years of my life, they were like my parents. But I just always felt this unconditional love from them. There was nothing I think I could do that would get me in trouble with my grandparents. And so just to have that sense of, safety and security in the world. At the same time, they always made it very clear that I had a mother who was away who was sending money to take care of me. So they never hit that. But I just felt, and again, my grandparents were raising many grandchildren, but I still felt special somehow. And so for them to be able to give me that sense of belonging that we talked about, it's just, it's something that I think the reason I am the man I am is because of the foundation that they laid and anything I was able to achieve was because they built that sense of, are worthy into me. And so when I arrived in Winnipeg and I didn't feel as worthy, I think what kept me going was what my grandparents had built into me. Yeah. that's really beautiful. you know, in a lot of ways, when I reflect on my own experience arriving in Canada, I never thought, like Canada really shook me. It made me question who I was. It made me question whether or not I was worthy. And I'd never had those questions before. And I always, when I now, when I reflect on it, I wonder if that was overconfidence or just something we never worried about because we always felt like we belonged. Like it was just this marination in love, if you will. And then all of sudden all of your identity is questioned and you start having these important questions in life. And you came at a very crucial age to yourself. You were only 12 years old. Yes. So I think we share that in common, as I said. In Harmony Veil, I write about it. I talk about it all the time. I knew everyone. I felt absolutely secure. As a child in kindergarten, I walked to school by myself. Imagine that here. Then I arrived, age 11, almost 12, and I remember walking to a classroom and looking around and you just feel, and I use the term, almost like you're standing naked in the crowd because there's not a soul that looks like you. You're standing out in the crowd. You're not feeling like you belong. And as I said, it's not anything I think anyone was doing to me. It was just a social climate at the time. There weren't many people who shared. My shade of beautiful at the time. expression, by the way. And you use it a couple of times in the book. And I thought, what a beautiful way to talk about the colors of our skin. Yes. You know, I like starting at that place that we are all beautiful because typically I think the narrative, okay, you're black, you're white, you're a little darker, you're lighter. We're not addressing the fact that no, we're all beautiful. We're actually separating. So I like to start with, we're all beautiful. or just different shades. It's a very healthy place for me to start from. That's just how I like to navigate this world. Beautiful. One of the other things that struck me reading your book was how optimistic you are. And then I was reflecting on the sense of nostalgia, especially for people who are away from... the lands that they're born in or their ancestral lands. And it's something that I've reflected on quite a bit for myself. So I'm curious about your thoughts. When we think about the homelands that we come from, do we forget the not very nice parts of our homelands? Like, are you one of those very glass is always half full kind of person? Because it seems to be you carry that energy, you carry that positivity in how you lead and how you guide and how you think. Absolutely. As I told you, I love Harmony Vale. I love Jamaica, I love going back, but I'm not blind to the negative things. For example, as I said earlier, a lot of kids are raised by their grandparents. Although I love the fact that we should be close to our grandparents, I don't appreciate that particular piece that many fathers would just leave their children and away they go. And that just becomes almost cultural. Raising kids. And I think part of it is simply because of the upbringing. We can be really hard. It's just a fact of life. And so I remember, you know, when I started having children and my sisters were here with me, we said, there are pieces of Jamaica that we absolutely want to embrace and hold on to. But there are some things that we're going to say we have to leave that. So we try to take the best. And I think probably every cultural group can do the same examination and find their pieces that we think are really beautiful. And there are some things that we need to leave behind because again, we want to ensure that we're always improving upon the experiences for our children and our grandchildren. So although I am a person who I would always say incredibly optimistic, it's not blind optimism. It's optimism in that we can always be evolving and doing better. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. That's, I would say that's very, that's more realist than pure optimism. know, that reminds me, Devon, I was recently at, at an event that was hosted by the University of Manitoba Punjab Students Association. And it was about belonging. if there's ever indicators that our world is in good hands, by the way, like these students were so inspiring. One of the questions they asked that evening of the group and they had, you know, at every table, smaller groups, one of the questions they asked was about their culture. students from all sorts of stripes and cultural backgrounds and faiths and ethnicities. And they said, what parts of your upbringing or your elders or your culture would you want to keep and which parts would you like to leave behind? And I thought, what an honest, candid, vulnerable question to ask about your culture. In a lot of ways, I was so curious to see how that conversation would go because I would be afraid of even asking that question out loud because as a newcomer myself, as someone who carries that weight of identity and representation, that will be a really scary place to be as seen as someone who represents their entire culture. out and I said, Jamaicans, we're hardy. We're tough. Honestly, doesn't matter where you will drop a Jamaican, give us enough time and we will flourish. just, we will. And I think part of that comes from our upbringing. But as I said, for example, I can school. Like for you to get a spank in, that was commonplace. But I wouldn't really call it a spanking. It was more like a beating. And I can say that in jest. If you see a lot of the stories you might see about Jamaican parents, yes, we're very strict. And so I realized, I don't want to be that strict. But we understand where it's coming from. For example, my mother was very strict when we arrived here. And it didn't take long for us to start just putting herself in her place and realize she was here raising children on her own. She's so fearful. So a lot of that is coming from fear. deep love, but acting in fear. And so we need to just appreciate that. We need to look at our culture and there are things about ourselves that we should all be able to laugh at. And for you to be able to say, I may not want that piece or here's what I'm going to take. You're not maligning your culture. You're just actually being a human being and saying, how do I keep evolving and doing better? Because as I said, Jamaicans, we will survive no matter where you put us. Yeah. And you know, I'm laughing because one of the things that came out that evening, was the adaptability piece. All these students around the table, they talked about all sorts of things and they said, absolutely, we got to keep our food because our food is so good. It's so interesting. It's flavorful. It takes for everybody to make. And then some of the women at the table said, would love to leave behind the parts of our culture where it's just the women who do all the work and it's the men who get to enjoy. And one of the one of the other things that emerged was adaptability. You throw our people anywhere and we can figure it out. We can adapt. And with that also sometimes comes potential loss of culture as well. Because in an effort to adapt, it's a bit of a tricky balance. It really is. In how you hang on to your own roots and yet adapt to the new place. So even just in this brief conversation that we just had. Can you imagine that happening on a much larger scale? think part of what's really ailing us right now is the inability or fear just to sit back and have honest, open conversations like that. No blaming, no shaming, but just being more human and real. I think that's the place we would love to be able to get to. That's secure to a lot of what ails us right now. Yeah. Well, I'm glad you segued into that. Because one of the things I'm very curious about is you're working on helping the city of Winnipeg become a city of compassion. Tell me what does that even mean? What does a city of compassion look like? Well, although we say it's about the city of Winnipeg, this is just the way my mind works. It truly is about the world, generally speaking. When I first arrived in the city in 1975, a very long time ago, people can't believe that. But I remember the word that we used to use to talk about people like, our shades of beautiful was tolerate. You know, we're going to tolerate diversity. That's not really compassionate when you think about it. Nobody wants to be tolerated. I certainly did not want to be tolerated. And as I examine, you know, the evolution of the city over those last 50 years. And I believe in this city. I truly believe it can be a light to the rest of the world. And you look globally, just the state that we're in. But also I look locally, the state that our city is in and the potential that's here. The city who took a little boy from Jamaica, got him to a place where he felt like he belonged, became a police officer in this city, became the first chief of police who shares this shade of beautiful in the history of our country. I say a city like that has incredible potential to set an example for the rest of the world, but what really ails us globally is the lack of compassion, the disconnect. And I say we, sitting right here at the center of North America, if we become that city, the rest of the world will look at us and say, how is Winnipeg doing it? How do you take a little boy from Jamaica and make him chief of police? Can we become this incredible city where we're just caring for one another? That is the cure. Getting back to the fact that I want us to start having conversations just like you and I are doing, but much on a broader scale, continually across the city. Because I honestly believe that's what's missing. We have all of the resources that we need here. It's not about money. There are enough caring people in the city that need to be reconnected. And then we'll see transformation. That's what it's about. What does that look like? How do we go about it? It's really simple. When I took on the role of chief of police, we were murder capital, crime capital of the country. I what are you going to do? I said, really, the power lies within the community. So that's exactly what I did. I traveled from community to community and we had community forums and I engaged citizens and I asked them what they wanted from their police. Another single person talked about more policing. They talked about the connections. And I did the same thing within the organization with the membership. I said, why did you become a police officer? The number one response you'll always get is, want to help people, civilian or sworn. That's why they work in the Winnipeg Police Service. They said, are we doing our best? Not one single person, almost 2,000, could say, I feel we're doing our best. So what if we tried this? And it's simple things. And truly, just by reconnecting our citizens, it was amazing the transformation you saw. Continually I heard people would say this to me, Chief, we feel the difference, we feel the difference. How do you measure a feeling? And then in the first year, crime dropped 13.9 % with no additional expenditures, so it was not about the money. And I believe wholeheartedly that if we reconnect, just like you and I are doing here, the last five years have been very difficult, not only for our city, our country, the entire globe, people have been so disconnected. We're always looking for somebody else to solve our problems. We can be the solution. So that's what it looks like for us. Start having these conversations, reconnecting people. bring the solutions from the community. can't be from an elected leader. Actually, it's right here. It's in every single one of us. Yeah. And how do we engage in, Devon? I love that. And, you know, just even hearing you speak, I'm fired up. like, let's go. Let's go connect. Which is great. How do we make sure that these conversations around connections are reaching those whose voices are not typically at the table? And again, I go back to my own experiences. I'm saying we have to go too. So I think in the past, oftentimes we'll say, okay, people come to us. No, let's go to the people. Let's go to where the people are meeting and have those conversations with them. They want to be heard. So I think we have to make it easy for people to come and for them to be heard. In my experience, I've often found it's not really complicated. It's a simple thing. So let's go back to the grassroots. Let's start with just meeting people where they're at. During the midst of the pandemic, I went to Ontario to help establish the Inspectorate. You would think that would be an incredibly difficult task. And even though we did it virtually, rather than me just coming in and saying, here's what we will do, thou shalt. No, I went and I met with every single police chief and every single board right across the entire province, 90 meetings. A lot of people would say, well, you're the, I was the inspector general of policing. You can just dictate. But when you take the time and you go and you sit and you meet and you have conversations with people and you understand what their fears might be and you help to rectify that. It was incredible. We were able to establish the Inspectorate during the midst of the pandemic, built an incredible team, people who I'm still in connection with, because you take the time to go and sit and listen when you do that incredible things happen, Samir. Yeah. Well, that's so inspiring to hear and also oddly surprising. And I'm surprised because I'm questioning my own biases here about police and Who better to ask than you? One of the things as you were talking now that reminded me that I read in your book was when you share about your experience going to the US after 9-11 and spending time debriefing with frontline responders and you know... I've been involved in some of that work similarly with frontline humanitarian aid workers. I was still surprised when you talked about all these frontline responders, especially the police, feeling emotional. And I thought, and I get this, I work in this space, and yet I was surprised. What contributes to us not feeling or not seeing the police as... humans because I think that's what ends up happening is there's a little bit of that dehumanization that happens over that. me unpack that a little bit. I typically like to say people forget that there's a heart beneath that badge. And part of that is our own persona. But it's required. You're at a horrible scene and all that you're feeling and all the civilians who are impacted. The last thing they need to see is the police, the guy in uniform who's supposed to be solving everything, breaking down. And so we serve that role. I tell you, the hardest thing I ever had to deal with in policing was on a beautiful sunny afternoon in this city, two young girls were walking home from the beach and a drunk driver came up behind them, pardon me, walking home from the swimming pool and ran them over and killed them. And I was in traffic at the time. That was my scene. By the time I arrived at the scene, the ambulance had taken the girls, but I had to reconstruct the entire accident. And you can do that. And so in my mind's eye, I'm seeing the entire thing unfolding. And remember, I'm a police officer, I'm in uniform, I'm amazing at the scene. Hours later, I get back to the station, and one of the officers who's dealing with the accused tells me that, can't believe it, he doesn't care a thing about these girls. And literally, I saw myself walking into the interview room, pulling out my gun and putting two rounds into this person. And I said to my partner, we have to leave right now. He's like, why? I said, I don't know, but I just know we have to leave. I just knew that I was not in a good place. So I left and we drove around in silence for the rest of the shift. End of shift about 1 a.m. I go home. I have two young daughters. I check on the first one. She's safe. I check on the second one. She's safe. And then just... Tears like you would not believe, right? People forget that beneath that uniform and that really tough exterior is still a heart. And so, yeah, it's really difficult for us the things that we will see and have to deal with. And it was after going through something like that that I thought, okay, the best thing that I can ever do for our officers, and I became a chaplain. You did, didn't you? a chaplain-to-chief, right? And so it was in my chaplain role that I went to New York. to help their officers, because I realize, and sometimes because we have to have this front, we're not going to go and sit and talk to a counselor or somebody else, but we'll talk to a fellow police officer. so, yes, I think that's one of the things I like to remind people. There's a heart beneath that badge, a dad, a mom, a brother, a sister, uncle. At the end of the day, we're only human. You know? So, thank you for sharing that story. course there's a human under that badge and I hope that we can all remember that in moments when we're feeling that rage. With your role though and everything that you've seen and experienced and contributed to, what does it look like to continue to invest in building more compassion? For me, it is about a purpose. People say, well, Daman, you retired. I said, no, didn't retire. I transitioned. Like, I became a police officer not because I wanted to wear a uniform and carry a gun or any of the trappings of policing. I became a police officer because I wanted to help lead social change. I wanted to transform the climate. And again, at that time, it was about how people saw people who shared my shade of beautiful. I'm going to do something to prove to people that because of the color of your skin or where you're coming from, don't put anybody in a box. And at the time, I'd never seen an officer. So... Perfect. And when I became a police officer and I'm the beat on Main Street, and I would see people in these really challenging, you know, conditions, like, I can be more than a police officer. I can help change even just the way they saw themselves. So doing the simple things for me, like saying, sir or ma'am, and just seeing lights that would go on in people's eyes, I'm treating you with a sense of dignity and respect. And my entire career has been about that. But I think that is my life's purpose. So when I retired from policing, That didn't stop the purpose. just find a different vehicle or different avenue to really serve. And that's what we're doing right now. And even with the Charter for Compassion and Compassion at Winnipeg, that is still living out the purpose. So the purpose doesn't end. You just find a different way to fulfill it. I love it. I love that. And, you know, my husband and I often talk about what is retirement anyway? Is there, is that such a thing? Your purpose, I don't think your purpose ever dies. And as I said, the 23 year old who applied to the police service is now the 62 year old. still do it all these things. There's no difference. We now know how old Devon is. That's okay. I'm good with it. Cause everyone said the kids think I look like 30 something. I'm okay. There you go. love that confidence. one of the, one of the things that you received some criticism for. was talking about prayer. And I loved how you started the book by saying, everybody, here is my faith. So like stop reading now. If this is not something that's going to sit funny with you. And I really appreciated that because it's right. It sets you, sets up the reader quite well. I'd love to hear what prayer means to you. And before I get there, let me just say, here's my, what I find challenging sometimes about our culture. We say diversity, equity and inclusion. Isn't our faith part of our diversity? Shouldn't we be including that in everything that we do? And really, it's so important to me. Like if I didn't bring that to work, I wouldn't be the best that I could be for the people that I want to serve. And as I said, I am not telling anybody else how to live. And I want all of us to be there. But in terms of prayer, what does it mean to me? I'm going to be very open and honest with you here. Every day I get up, prayer is very important piece. It centers me, right? I don't just get up and rush off into the chaos of the day. I get up and I spend time and I read and meditate and I pray. And now I'm grounded and I can go on. And any type of chaos can come, but I can deal with it. So that's what I do every single day. So when I became chief of police, I realized, okay, in order to be able to do this, that means you have to get up earlier, Davon. And that's what I did. Okay? Because I was going to be into work much earlier, and the things that I'm going to be dealing with is far more chaotic, so you need to be even more grounded. And so I would not be who I am without that constant in my life. And for those who don't need it, I'm like, fabulous. But I couldn't survive without it. Yeah. Right? Yeah. But I never tell anyone they have to be. And as I said, I was a police chaplain for the entire service. You know, people would come up to me and, what do you think about God? Well, tell me what you think. Right. Because I'm not here to convert you or cause you to believe in anything. And it was amazing to be able to serve our diverse group of individuals. And again, when I became chief of police, I made a comment about prayer and I was just attacked right across the board for it. And I remember the throng of media saying, aren't you sorry that you said that? And I said, no, I'm not sorry. All I'm simply saying is this. I want every single member of our community to bring the best of who they are to the table to help solve the issue of crime and social decay. And you know, it was really wonderful because every faith group was responding. And one of the greatest letters I received was from an individual who said, hey, I'm an atheist, but I believe in what you said. Because all I was saying, we're one. Everyone has a role to play and allow people to be the best of who they are and bring it to the table. And as I said, the first year, crime dropped 13.9%. And we didn't spend any more money. But I can tell you, as you drove around the city, you saw on church billboards and other billboards, Chief Clunis says, pray. And people were literally telling me that they're prayed. You tell me what people were feeling. So again. I never preach yet anyone, but I think we should be allowed to be authentically who we are. Diverse, equitable, inclusion. We're all part of this. Yeah, I appreciate that. And I love where you started that by saying that, you know, when we talk about diversity, equity and inclusion, why do we leave faith out of the conversation, especially knowing how much faith can also be a topic that's a source of polarization? without a doubt. And you know what? As we were saying earlier in terms of our culture and what we might want to leave behind, we have to admit that people have done some atrocious things in the name of faith right across the board. But hey, you and I are not responsible for that. So if somebody wants to use it negatively, that's even more reason for us to shine the positive light of what faith means to us. Yeah. I appreciate that. actually, I wrote something I wanted to read to you. It came to mind when I read that part about prayer in your book. So, I wrote this about a month ago when I was visiting Saudi Arabia. I went there to perform Umrah. as I was there going through the rituals that we do, I started reflecting on what prayer means. And so I wrote this poem that I'd like to read to you. ah I call it To Be Seen. We claim prayers are about God, about surrender, humility even. But have you seen the sound of prayer when it leaves the body? Rising, reaching, begging the air for an answer? Some even shout them as if that makes them truer. It's human though, isn't it? To want to be seen, not just by someone's knowing eyes and knowing smile and knowing nod, but wanting to be seen by the divine itself. We dress our prayer in devotion, wrap our yearning in cloth, but beneath the prayer beads and the bowed heads is the same ache. See me. See me. See not the voice that trembles with faith. but the child is still afraid of not being held. And maybe that's okay. Maybe needing to be seen is the most human prayer of all. And maybe that's just it. We are mirrors of that longing, the need to be seen becoming the divine remembering itself through us. So when I think of prayer, and when I think of the work of building compassion, I truly feel like it's the work of helping being seen and finding ways that can allow people to build out for themselves. I would agree with you a hundred percent. As I said, when you look particularly at the last five years, I know, people can be in a very crowded room, but they're not being seen, they're not being heard. and they're feeling incredibly isolated. So if we can do that in this city, and it truly becomes a light to the world, and people can come to Winnipeg and say, how did you do this? Because yes, we have all of these great social challenges. People talk about some of the poorest, you know, postal codes in our city. We see what's happening on Main Street. And I have this desire, I drive up and down Main Street regularly, because I want to see what's happening. I don't want to forget it. And I think we need to realize that that decay slowly will find its way out. We can't hide from it. So it's important that we see it and determine that we're going to do something about it. So I really appreciate that. And maybe that can be part of our theme. We have to see. If you're not seeing it, you'll never have a desire to fix or rectify it. And once you do, when you talk about doing something about it, a huge part of... healing our society and I appreciate you framing it as a social decay. A huge part of healing our society, healing ourselves is about bearing witness and not looking away. And I think that is what's been happening a lot lately, especially is we've started making it okay to look away. And the more we look away, the more we just go inwards. and live as individuals as a part of living as a part of our community. And that's something that you reflect on as a part of being one. Yeah, it gets to a point where we don't realize that by not looking, we're actually harming ourselves. That might sound a little profound, but truly, if you're not seeing the hurt and the pain, and you think you're okay, we're actually losing a little bit of our humanity. By the fact that we're not seeing the hurt and the pain and decay that's taking place for other members of our society, other members of community, what will the next generation look like? Right? We are slowly losing pieces, layers of our humanity when we're not looking at that. It should hurt. And it's okay to hurt when you see that. Because now that moves you to the point of, okay, let me express my compassion in a very tangible way. It's going to help that individual. But by helping that individual, we're actually helping ourselves. And I don't know if we realize that. So that's part of the, I talk about raising the social consciousness of the populace. We need to do that because, know, it's kind of like I said earlier about police having to put up this wall. Well, I think we as citizens have kind of put up a wall and we're forgetting that our hearts are kind of atrophying there because we need to get back to that place. Reconnection. And I appreciate what you said about it's okay to hurt because I think that discomfort is what prevents people from engaging in action. evokes when you see something that when you see someone in conditions that are not right, it's not this is not what human rights look like. This is not what human dignity looks like. uh and you feel that discomfort, you start feeling guilty and shame and all of those feelings tend to overwhelm people. And the response is you shut down. How do we help change that discomfort into action? Yes. So there was a promise I made myself very early in my police career that I never wanted to get to that place where I'm not feeling. Because it's easy, you see a lot of it. But how do we shift that? It's by doing exactly what we're doing here, having the conversations. We need to get back to the point of reconnecting people. Because as you said earlier, we've made it okay not to feel. People are looking for permission to feel and then to take action. Sometimes, if I look at it from a law enforcement perspective, I think sometimes one of the worst messages that we can send to the public is that, oh, police is responsible for that. We're responsible. We're responsible. And after a while, it's, the police are the only ones who supposed to keep us safe. I'm like, no, safety is all of our responsibility, right? So, we need to retrain the populace. And that's part of what we're going to be trying to do in our city by having these conversations. So, reconnection, reawakening, realizing that we're one, we're responsible for others that we consider to be less fortunate. And we can help people. And when I say we're going to help people, it's not just going to be handouts. I'm saying, let's give people their dignity back. Let's empower people to actually help themselves as well. It's not just the police's responsibility to take care of the community, the individuals who we might consider to be unfortunate. If we give them the right tool, suddenly they're helping themselves. There's a lot of power in this community that we need to kind of ignite. Yeah. And then I think that permission to feel is such an important ingredient in that. you know, one of the expressions I often use when I'm talking about that permission to feel is when a baby first learns to walk, they don't just get up and like run a marathon. You know, they'll get up, they'll maybe take a half a step and boop, they drop, you know, they'll get up, there's some crying, there's some... It's sloppy at first. And we've made it okay to not feel. And so now when we start encouraging that sense of feeling, we should also be prepared that there will be discomfort, there will be rage, there will be the room burning a little bit. And as those who are doing this work, we have to be prepared to let that room burn a little bit, to let those feelings emerge so that we can work towards what it means to. You have to let the emotion out. Us saying that we need to be compassionate doesn't mean that I don't want people to be real and share their frustrations. The compassion, as I said, is in listening and giving people room to do that. These last five years, people have been silenced. I said earlier, using the term tolerate, We're an incredibly diverse community. I don't understand everything about everybody else's culture. I might get some things wrong. Can we give ourselves the latitude or the room to say we can make honest mistakes? Can we be forgiven and say, I understand this is not what you meant. But today's climate is like any little misstep, you're out. No, we have to give people a little bit of grace. Yeah. Right. I'm not going to tolerate you. I'm going to try to understand you. And at the end of the day, start from the standpoint that yes, we're different shades of beautiful. We're one. And yes, I might misunderstand something, but just always be trying to bring people back to that place. Yeah. Nobody's going to be left out. For sure. And I think that requires capacity at ends. Yeah. requires capacity. Like I'm going to make mistakes. Yes. And yes, you know, when it comes to, I'll just speak to like my faith and my culture. If I'm encouraging, if I'm opening up myself to share about my belief systems and my spirituality or my folklore or about my people, I have to be okay that people are going to get it wrong. They may say things that would be constituted quite racist, but I have to allow for that to happen so that they can make mistakes. And on their flip side, If I do offer corrections and adjustments, there has to be capacity at the other end to receive that critique without it spilling into shame and embarrassment. So I think there needs to be capacity at both ends. without a doubt. So as you mentioned about racism, I have a story I can share with you But so very early in my career, the very first time in the seat of Winnipeg that two black officers worked together in a car. And myself and the officer, go to an actually call was here in the exchange district. We go and a lady with a lighter shade of beautiful opens the door and sees us two and slams the door shut and says, go away and call some white police. Right now is a term she used at the time. Do you think we were feeling good at the time? Lovely. Okay. But I thought, hold on here. I have to address this. So I knocked on the door. Said hello. She goes, no, go away and call some white police. All black men do is... White women raped, she said. I'm like, oh my goodness. I'm like, you know, we really are the police. Our cruise car is parked outside. You can take a look. She goes, no, go away and call some white police. I said, all the white police are busy, so they had to send us. Because I'm like, no, I have to deal with this. have to... I'm like, why do you believe that about black men? That's what I see on television. She's probably never had a conversation with somebody with my shade of beautiful. So I spent about 15 minutes coaxing this woman to open the door. We go in, we dealt with the situation very professionally, resolved it, and we're just about to leave. I said, oh, hold on. Did we solve your situation? Yes. Did we rape you? No. Do you still believe that same thing about black men? No. Today, we don't give a no. Today, that person will be canceled, finished, done. I don't agree with that. Because people are being educated based on what they see on social media or on television, and they actually believe what they believe until they have a conversation with you or me. And we say, no, that's not the way it is. And we approve them differently. This is who we are. Now, that's an extreme case. But I still challenge myself, okay, to say no. But, you know, on her behalf, I would say she really didn't know. She never had an ex... Particularly... We're talking 40 some years, no, 30 some years ago. And there people in this country still who have not had many conversations with people who share our shade of beautiful. their opinions are based on what they're seeing on television or social media until they sit down and have a conversation. And we need to be able to give them a little bit of grace. And a lot of people would say to me, like, it's not my job to give them grace. Then whose job is it? Yeah. You know? I appreciate that because... I struggle with that for myself quite a bit because at some point you go, I've been giving people grace for 25 years now. absolutely. And then I actually asked this question not too long ago. I was at a book launch for a very dear friend of mine who his background is in Tanzania and he was launching his book and he was talking about, you know, the responsibility that oh as people of color, as people with a certain faith background carry. And I asked the question, well, like, how much more can we possibly carry? And he said, which later I was like, I hate you, but also I love you for this. He said, I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but if you have the privilege, which is a very, very powerful reframe on this, like, victim identity piece, He said, if you have the privilege and you have the voice, you carry the responsibility. So it never goes away. agree, Sumia, and which is why I still travel across this country speaking and I say things from the stage, recognizing that, yes, I can say it because we have that privilege and we have the responsibility and it empowers others and it's actually helping to shift the narrative. and shift the social culture. So yeah, we have a responsibility. So I always say, if I don't do it, who do I expect to do I expect people just to understand me as a black Jamaican man? If I'm not going to explain. So no, I never get tired of doing that. And I also I love that because the other thing I've been telling myself is You talk about this in your book too, encouraging people to travel and experience other cultures. Like relational learning, learn from each other, through each other's food, ask questions, curiosity. And I also tell myself, well, of my circle, not many people are going to have the opportunity to go to Pakistan. So yeah, I have to represent and I get to share little snippets of that. and what that looks like. So, which is also kind of neat. It's incredibly so. And so, and again, this city, one of the most diverse you're going to find in our country, becoming more diverse every day. I spent a lot of time in schools and I love going to elementary schools because most of the times when you see the kids, all they're seeing is, just kids. Yeah. A little bit older, we download and we start to socialize them to see the differences. So much so. And then the difficulty starts. So I really think we need to get back to almost a childhood state. Can we do that? Kids have a lot of grace for one another. First, they don't see all the things that we see. And if somebody messes up, we're moving on. So I consider myself to be a very simple person. I tell people that all the time. I don't think it's so complicated. It really isn't. We have complicated it. And if we can get back to a more simplistic way of view in the world, in terms of our relations with one another. We're one. Can we just say that? We're just different shades of beautiful. It's so simple, but it's so effective and powerful. Devon, what are you looking forward to in the next little while? Well, aside from going back to a warm climate. It is very cold in Winnipeg. I really am looking forward to us working together and the compassionate Winnipeg movement. I honestly believe that this city can be that light. I foresee great things happening in the city of Winnipeg. I said my experience in the city has been nothing but incredibly positive. And maybe it's because, as I said, typically the glass is half full. But I know there are so many wonderful, positive people here in the city. And when we bring them together, I think the potential is limitless. I really, in 2026, I said this to someone very recently, I feel more energized than ever. Because I feel something great is right out in front of us. And we are going to be able to reach and grab a hold of it. So I'm seriously excited about this year and what we're going to do. I love that. And, you know, I don't know if I'm a glass half full or glass half empty person, but I will tell you that give me enough time with the glass and I'll be able to see all sorts of sparkles in it. So that's what I'm looking forward to. I really do think there is so much when we start listening. to each other and going beyond the your everyday things that we see everyday assumptions. if imagine how beautiful it would be if we could all be okay to just be a little bit uncomfortable. and I think it would allow for such meaningful conversations. And I'm really, really excited for that. Likewise, any parting wisdom for our listeners? I would simply say this. At the end of the day, we're on this journey. And let's try to make it as peaceful as possible for one another. I think we can do that. That's what I want in this city. Thank you very much, Devon Thank you.