Welcome to Between the Threads, a podcast exploring the threads that connect us, story, memory, identity, and meaning, and how they weave the fabric of peace in our lives and communities. Between the Threads is a joint initiative between Kahanee and Narratives. Kahanee is a nonprofit organization that amplifies storytelling for peace building, and Narratives is an award-winning planning and design firm based in Winnipeg, Canada. Welcome to today's episode of Between the Threads. On today's episode, we have the incredible Amna Burki with us. Amna believes stories are bridges connecting cultures, generations and hearts. Through her organization called Stories Matter, Amna amplifies underrepresented voices using the art of oral storytelling to foster connection, healing and understanding. With over 20 years of experience across community and nonprofit spaces, Amna brings insight and attention to every story she shares. Filled by deep dive and a deep belief that every story matters, she invites audiences to... deeply and speak bravely. Amna, As-salamu alaykum welcome so much to our studio today. Wa alaikum salaam thank you for having me. First things first, I want to hear about this chai. What is Amna's approach to chai? A short belt? what I do is I put a with a crease like this and I do this color for a while, a few minutes, then I put to it, the belt, and then I the belt off. and then add sugar. So that's my way of making like a... Doodh Pati Yeah, would offer that definitely is a shortcut. But it's also, it fuels your soul when you do it. So my approach to well maybe a quick jelly, but I just really like But I do, like sometimes to throw an I.G. in it. that somehow makes the shortcut not feel as short-cutty anymore. But the real Doodh Pati would be like just start with milk, let it boil for a long time. uh Sometimes I'll add Gurdh to it. Gurdh, that sounds amazing. So Amna, tell us what Amna was like growing up. Amna was like growing up, that's very interesting. So I grew up in uh many parts of Pakistan, I would say. My father moved around a lot, my parents moved around a lot. I'm the youngest of three siblings. um I would say most of... born in New York and then I moved to Florida and then I moved to Karachi so I have been in most parts of the country and every time it was a child's we go to those provinces and would play with us. Since I was in Karachi, were all over the internet. half, I had to learn Sindhi. So I remember I had to bribe someone with chocolates and ask them like, of these three or four other dotted alphabets, some of them have four dots. know, like we have Cher and then Yaya. I've never seen, Sydney has four dots. So interesting. Can you read? I can read at the time. to pass the exam. was grade four. So I got through the Sindhi exam. That's incredible. Like when I, and I don't have any comprehension of Sindhi. but it just sounds like such a... It's a beautiful language. Soft, beautiful, beautiful language. it is. um And you also notice the difference in Punjab. Like you're not really required to do the language in your schools. True. It's very welcoming to people from any part of Pakistan. ah But in other places, like the language is part of the curriculum, the local language. Yeah. So what brought Amna to Canada and to Winnipeg? I met my husband while I was doing my masters in the UK. And, uh you know, it seems like maybe I should acclimatize to winter. He grew up here. oh I was wondering about this because I found this somewhere else. live somewhere else, but that hasn't happened for 25 years. But I've really grown to love where I live and Manitoba has been my home for the last 25 years. I've always resisted this idea of Winnipeg being home and you know, there's so much there to unpack. But for me, it was a few years ago, I can't remember where I was for work and on the way back as the plane was landing, I remember seeing the Winnipeg, you know, rivers from the plane and feeling this warmth in my heart and thinking, this is step one. Like we're starting to accept Winnipeg as home. What was it like? really, yeah, was it like, really, from a set of different places, set of different environments, to come to a place where can do I think it's so much about, I just want to be down and about. It's lot brutal if you come here in winter. um I think the first thing I noticed was how flat everything was. Like, you can literally see, and I've never been in a place like that before. Like, it's really like, you know, so unique that you can see miles on end. Yeah. really strikes you. And I think also the color of the soil here. You know, in Pakistan, it's lighter, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot lighter. those were the two things that I really noticed right away. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Like I hadn't thought about the color of the soil till just now. that makes sense. And of course, you probably still get a little bit of weather, or how you just accept it, but that's not a problem. But although I cannot do that for you. always hits you when it's winter. I don't know if I'll ever accept it. But you know, life still happens. Like, you know, we're so used to it now. I mean, like today, what is it? Minus 40 or something? Minus 50 with everything considered. And yet we're here. Yes, we're here. So does Canada now feel like home? It does. at the same time, like I don't know where home is at the moment. You know what I mean? Like I grew up as a child of refugee parents from India. So again, like, was that really home? You know, they had all these memories of partition and what their home and I've never seen where they grew up. Right? Like I never saw the homes they had in India. And you know, if you're a Pakistani, it's not easy to access that. that it's right. So, for me, this has just been this, like, even not that, it just, I feel like it's lost the planet. was such a part of. So I always tell my children, for instance, that, I grew up, I was born in Pakistan, my parents were born in India, and you guys are born in Canada. So I don't know where, you know, if you guys decide to have kids, I don't know where that will be because, you know, there's so much change in the family history. Yeah. That sense of belonging, I do believe that I created for others through storytelling, but I don't know if I actually feel it all the time. That's so interesting. You know, I was recently reflecting on this idea of where is home and what that means. I was exposed to this concept of a third culture kid. you know, if there's psychologists listening to this, they'll probably say that I've misunderstood it or misinterpreted it. this idea of third culture kid really is that you, at the heart of it, is that you connect more with people who've had similar experiences, particularly when the geography is not as similar. So you're born in a culture that is not yours or your parents' to them, like they're from somewhere and then they're from a generation. So I feel like we really be carrying the fragments of identity from every place that we grow up in. Yes, for sure. You talked a little bit about... your work in school time. I remember how I first met you. so much need for radio work, especially with folklore. So tell me first what folklore means to you. So it was an accidental discovery. Absolutely. uh It was in the middle of or the beginning of COVID. I was working for this nonprofit here in Winnipeg. and they were part of a Families Canada project on integrating newcomers seniors through volunteering. So it would be newcomers seniors, older adults who have come to Canada and you can imagine for them, like settlement is even harder. And for them to then volunteer with preschoolers so that they feel this family away from family. And in this project, I was very close to them. And then COVID happens. Suddenly you have no way of gathering them, especially if they're older adults, they're more at risk of COVID. So somebody who was my work mentor, Melinda Pasqual, if you're listening to this, this is your part. She's like, why don't you try oral storytelling with them? uh And I literally didn't understand what she meant. So she's like, I'm going to give you a story, go prepare it. use the words, just do it your own way. read the script of the story, but do it naturally. And I still didn't know what she meant until I tried it out. And from that day onwards, I was hooked. I was like, my goodness, this is oral storytelling. And at that point, I didn't realize that I'm coming from a heritage of oral storytelling. Right? Like I didn't know it was oral storytelling at the time. So just getting into it and I'm that the person and also the content. And lucky for the people who most of the storytellers, right, were offered to visit online. So really how about to learn the story at the time and then... my proudest moment is reviving one of my grandmother's stories. beautiful. And I've shared that now, like, I shared it at my nephew's wedding in California. It's been part of a museum project in Britain. I went to a storytelling festival in Morocco. I shared that. So for me, it's also keeping that family legacy and family stories. Because if you think about it, when my grandmother had to migrate, it was forced migration, if you like, all they could carry were the stories with them. And it's a beautiful tale. It's a folk tale, you know, and there's so many... levels of meaning in it now that I've come back to it as an adult. Wow. Right? Like this, it's a story which has so many layers. And I think one thing I've realized about folklore is that it's the ordinary people's way of passing on information and knowledge and wisdom that they want the next generation to know. And the way folk tales work is they're very memorable. Sure, they're very memorable. So it helps to remember. said that, because we go through Western education and we don't value oral storytelling as much as we should, and many of our cultures, traditional cultures, are built on it. So there is, it is sometimes a dying art. Like if I hadn't rediscovered it, if you like, ah that story, the way my grandmother used to share it, would have died out with her generation. Yeah. Right. So I think that's the beauty of it. I also feel like once you're sharing those tales, like people are bringing their own stories from their culture. And there's so much that is similar. And at the same time, there's so much that's different. Right. So you get a taste of what it's like. What's important to a doctor, because those are the things that you know. Yeah. How does one find that story? ah So a lot of times it'll be, I prefer stories that are actually still part of oral history or oral culture and they're coming to you naturally like my grandmother's story. uh Otherwise, like there's books that have been compiled of stories from different cultures, but mind you, many of those books, compilations, of oral stories or folk tales or fairy tales are collections that weren't originally like people who were telling the oral stories. Think about the Grimm's fairy tales. There were two brothers who collected those stories. went around in Europe, in Germany to collect those stories. Similarly, there were a lot of scholars who came to South Asia and they collected the local, but there's sometimes missing the element what makes the oral story come alive. Because once it's written, it's not the same thing. There's a difference in how you write a story versus how you tell it orally. So where would someone find a story of your grandmother? So it's online. I have that and, you know, I'm happy to share it whenever you want. Yeah, absolutely. Tom, no, we would love to hear that story about your grandmother. I would love to hear so I'm not sure if you know this Punjabi word called Kujja Yeah, yeah, yeah, I do. Okay. So what does it mean for you? Kujja? Yeah. Like to, to search? No, her story, my grandmother's story, Kujja was like a small clay pot where you store things. I think it's like not used anymore. So this is like, my grandmother was almost a century old when she passed away. So, I mean, You can imagine she was born in 1903. So she lived for a long time. We were like 70 years apart. So at family gatherings, now I grew up with her. So whenever we weren't traveling to other parts of Pakistan or living in our family home was always in Rawalpindi. So the twin city to Islamabad. And that's where she lived, post-partition. And my father would always ask her, can you please share the story of the Kujja? And then she would gather all the grandchildren and talk about this with me. And this story is something that I think people, and all of us think about. And I absolutely love it. Like I said, the lyrics are so beautiful. are just absolutely beautiful. And there's a part that I want you to join in. Sure. Okay. And the one watching, if you could join us. uh Akbar the Great, the great Mughal emperor was angry. He was so angry. He was seething in rage. Where is my favorite courtier? Why isn't he here? Guards go get him. And the guards went and they found the courtier trying to calm his young child who was crying. And he wouldn't stop. And the courtier said to the guards, please. when my child comes home, I will come. My wife does not want us. I have no choice but to stay with her. So when he came to a place, a person said, why are you We have a- empire to run. Why are you late? I'm sorry, Your Highness, but my child was crying and there's no way I could leave him. We have an empire to run and you can't manage one child? What's wrong with you? One child you can't take care of? Your Highness, please, if you're not satisfied with my explanation, you may punish me. But before that, please, I'll be my child and you be me and see how hard it is to calm a crying child. Please give me this one opportunity. Nonsense of a game, but go ahead. Go ahead. I'm my child now. Can you join me? What's wrong? do want? uh You want what the elephant right? And you can keep anything? I want an elephant. You want an elephant? How hard is that? Bars, Elephant. ah This elephant is so nice. So big and that right one. Why? ride on it. Look, so amazing. What do you want now? You wanted an elephant, you got an elephant. What do you want now? I want, I want, I want a Kujja. You want a Kujja? That silly thing that people, ordinary people put food in, that small clay pot like this? Do you want a Kujja? Yeah, I want a Kujja, I want a Kujja, I want a Kujja, no, no, no, no. Okay, okay, guards! Kujja! This Kujja is so nice! It's got paint on it! Let me take a look inside! There's nothing inside! What do want now? You wanted an elephant, you got an elephant. You wanted a Kujja you got a Kujja. What do you want now? I know what I want. I want you to take that elephant and I want you to put it in that little Kujja. Right there, right there, right there. Stop, stop, stop. I get it. I get it. I'm not going to punish you because I know now that taking care of one child is harder. than just cutting a pen and writing Taking care of one child is harder than running an entire empire. So this was the story. And honestly, at the time when I was a child, when I used to listen to it, it felt like, you know, it's just, I'm just imagining that child, you know, I'm imagining the elephant. But when I'm coming to it as a mother myself, it has a deeper meaning, you know. Reflecting on why am I trying to find a different way. Losing a child is a secret job. No, think it's more... maybe they wanted to know from their mother that this is sacred and it takes effort. It's more sacred than actually running an empire. And I have a friend who is a despina, who's a storyteller from Greece. And she told me something fascinating. She's like, Amna, I see a different meaning to this. She that she feels like the full world are like that world. in power who have a lot of, they don't really see what it's like because they have nannies and their servants to look after the kids. But for someone like an ordinary person, they don't have oh the same level of help. It goes so well with this idea of it takes village to raise a child. What really stood out for me in the story, one, you're an incredible storyteller. Thank you for sharing that. I was with you in that scene as you were describing the dialogue. What stood out for me in that story was just how many... like you said earlier, how we knew there were to it, and also how telling that story can open up so many additional conversations. So, yes, the story was about Akbar recognizing what it takes to raise a child. And if we take the story forward, did the court chair also recognize what it's like to run an entire empire? So there's an opportunity here to control. Absolutely. Understanding of responsibilities and how running an entire empire is a completely different responsibility than raising a child. Both important. Absolutely. And perhaps Akhbar can't raise a child and perhaps that courtier can't run an empire. Yes. Right? So there's so many additional things. That's beautiful. can't the story. You'll hear a perspective that even the storyteller hasn't thought of. Right. Just like the one you shared at the moment. Right. Right. So that's the beauty of seeing like there's so many ways of, you know, it's the same story, but someone else has a very different. view of it or taking something different. And there's a storyteller that I trained with, Sylvia Laudridge, she's in Toronto. um She said something really beautiful in one of the classes I took with her was that you're always going to find the story that needs to be told. Oh, that's beautiful. It's hitting something within that needs to be told in some way. Yeah. So the story, according to your work, the story finds you. I love that. And then also, that resonates with every cell in my body. now. Because I'm thinking it's true. There's 20 years ago, I was telling very different stories than the stories that I'm telling today. you know, 20 years ago, I was maybe listening to a lot of stories. my, mean, was a lot longer than 20 years ago that I was listening to my grandparents and their stories. But today I'm telling those stories. it feels like the right time to be telling those stories. And before we started today, Amna, you were sharing a little bit about your parents and your grandparents' journey from India and the role that plays. what role do you explore in these, such as the ones that you tell and bring together when... what role can stories play in dealing with that grief of things such as the partition? You know, I think it changes the way you see life, that a lot of things that we take for granted, where we live, our homes, you know, um with like a snap of a finger, decisions that they had nothing to do with. Somebody else drew the border, somebody else decided the future of millions. It was considered the biggest land migration of people. um Affecting so many people, but also I think for me, the positive thing that's come out of it is knowing that um we need to work hard in making sure that people get along. Because one thing that my father would mention is that We got along with everyone. We don't know what happened. Why people who were neighbors then decided to kill each other? right? um We can see that, like, who's dividing people on what basis and who can bring people together despite their diversity. think that's, that's one thing I took from it. There was an over emphasis in my family for building our careers and our education skills that no one can take away. you would think that there's this new country that's created for you, but they were still facing facing discrimination when they came to the new place. um And I mean, like, in my family history, we have wedding songs. And nobody knows the meaning of them because they're in a lost language. No. I'm telling you. Oh, wow. Yeah. Because, you know, songs are so resistant to being forgotten, right? So the elder women especially, you know, like Mehndi, at the time of Mehndi, they would do those songs and everyone's wondering what does the Basha does? It's a whole song. And they're like, well, our ancestors lost that language. We don't know what it means. So it's so interesting to see like now. how these people have been on the move, if you like, for a long time. And how does that affect us? What is your sense of belonging when you're not really from that place? um So I think it's a sobering thought to know that... I don't know if I'm actually on. You're on topic, 100 % on topic. I was thinking, going back to this... notion of lost languages and wedding songs. One of my favorite memories growing up. is of my popo singing tepe at weddings. And for those who are listening, tepe, and I'll describe it and I'd love to hear on that if you share what your interpretation there is. So tepe are essentially these couplets. They're two lines, uh very common that are sung at weddings. And the first line is usually similar. And then the second line is where it's really And for us, would at weddings in particular, these would be almost like conversational. So I would sing one and I would put something out there. And then someone else, one of the other women would sing that first line saying to mine, which to me signals that they're responding to me. And then the second line, they would offer either a response or a message of some sort. one of my favorite memories is listening to my father and young. about, singing these Tepe and they would be about falling in love. They would be about betrayal. They would be about lost love. It would be about losing children, right? It would be about parents, would be about mother-in-laws, sister-in-laws, and often, it would even end up being these stuff, right? Extreme, you will. between the bride's side and the groom's side of family. So those are such beautiful mechanisms also of storytelling that can be a beautiful way to carry culture. Have you ever been able to find more about that lost language? Not really, but um I was so fascinated by... um I was on a committee at the Manitoba Museum and I loved how history is really preserved in these lands, right? If you think about it, there's so much preservation, even the artifacts. So I then decided to begin with me gather some of the party stories. And unfortunately, because of COVID, we lost a lot of elements. I never knew about the ends of the possibility that my interest in the Zoroastrianism, but even if it's really... you know, how do you, when it comes to preserving something, you need to be in a stable stage of your own life. I think a lot of our people are just on the go, on the move, there's something happening. You have to be settled for a long time in order to have artifacts. order to have... Yes. know that reminds me, my grandfather would always talk about... would say, Putar, Amir Zamina Dindine. Asi Ka Aneyi Dindine. He would remind us that it's the rich who pass on land. we also have service. back then, I didn't really know what, 10 years old, don't really understand that. I was definitely older than 10 years old. But now when I think about it, it's very true. Stories can be such a beautiful way of keeping those, keeping those memories alive. uh My husband is Mennonite and they have this book of genealogy. uh where it's title of who was going to be poem and how that was developed and for us, it's essentially through story of scene. So cultures that are rooted in oral history. that's the only way to keep that history alive. So my question here, I would love to hear your thoughts is, how do we decide what stories to tell? in the spirit of bringing people together? Because there's lots of stories of rape and archa and separation and division. And there are also other stories. But how do we decide? And how does that show up in your work that you do? So a lot of my work is in places where there's a need for empowerment, healing. uh One of my favorite places to share stories is uh family. problems prevention center. And you have women that took a fair bet. I may not see them again. What can I do? What can I leave them with that will give them hope? Right? Because stories are not neutral. Many people think like all stories are good, they're not. um And that's why like, you know, if you see my signature, I end with a quote from Chimamanda um TV animal, but it's a good thing. And she talks about it, she has a tech talk about it. of a single story. And I think we live in like, who has the dominant culture usually does have single stories of the others, if you like. So part of my work is bringing those stories out and leaving people with hope. um I would say there's stories that I like to share and I'm the first audience of my own story. that I'm sharing. So they give me hope. So I need a protagonist who means nothing but is able to achieve something. Because folktales by their very nature are about the ordinary people who don't have the resources and they're coming together and making something amazing from the lack of resources they have. So that pulling of together, mean, if you think about even the stone soup story, it's about, facilities and the energy of bringing those items together to bring that soup. So the magic is to bring together the community to realize that... our potential is so much more than we personally believe. One of my favorite stories, and this is just like a two minute long story, is, and I think you probably know about it because I the first conversation we had, I mentioned this, and this is a story which anytime that I want to think of this book. And I was on the board of this wonderful organization called Mises and they came up with stories of people who are peace heroes who've achieved so much. And I didn't know at the time that one of the people that they have in this curriculum, Wangarĩ Maathai She was a Kenyan uh activist who planted like millions of trees. She loved the story too. So version of the story. There was once a forest fire and all the animals and the birds were fleeing to the safety of a lake nearby. They watched hopelessly and helplessly as their homes and their nests burned to ashes and they couldn't do anything about it. They felt powerless. Then something curious got their attention. There was a tiny, tiniest of hummingbirds in the air. air. And she was going between the meek and the forest. And every time she would pick up just one drop of it. You know why? Because that's all her... that fit into her tiny beak. And she would go over the forest fire and release that. She went back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And these animals, much bigger than her, much mightier than her, said, hummingbird. You're going to burn your wings. What are you doing? It's useless. One drop of water at a time. What are you doing? She paid no attention. She kept going back and forth, back and forth and bringing that one drop of water. And when she couldn't take their taunts anymore without stopping, she said to them, and you can put your hand on your heart. She said to them, I'm doing the best I can. I'm doing the very best I can. And now there multiple endings to this story. In some, all the animals are inspired to put out the fire. But in many, we don't know the ending of the story because the forest fire represents so many things. It could be actual fires that we're dealing with that are increasing over every year. Or it could be symbolic of fires of racism, polarization, or something we have we're dealing with in our personal lives. I don't know what's happening in your life. It could be a person calamity, a health concern, a potential job loss or, you know, changes in government that, you know, affect all of us. So those things, you know, are there. And what can we do? We can be like the hummingbird. Do that tiny bit of, you know, fighting against that forest fire in our way. our way. love that story so much. And yes, I remember that story. Oh, thank you for telling it. It is such a story of hope. Absolutely. Because it's true. Like when you're faced with so much chaos in your life, you don't know what the right solution is. Absolutely. often, and I think that's sort of the nature of the human experience is we're trying to find simplicity. Yes. We're trying to drown out the noise and find a simple one simple thing that we can do. But that's really not how life works. Right. It it's complex and it requires acknowledgement of so many different truths and so many different realities. And in the midst of all of that, right. It be the hummingbird. Absolutely. Absolutely. that. So for me, the hummingbird is like being a storyteller. You know, can I just say that I absolutely love this apartment, right? Because if the story, if it was me, to be like, I don't know how tiny my head was, it never said I needed something. At least I know I rate you with a higher. Absolutely, yeah. what a beautiful reminder. Amna, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and your stories with us today. Where do you think the technology is going to get connected? I'm wondering if, I'm hoping to look up the site and some the links. I'm not sure if I'm on social media, I don't know where's the plug. yeah, I think LinkedIn is... But I appear as Amna and 'B' the last name I'm not using because I experienced some issues lately where people who are visible minorities are not safe at the moment. um That's a whole other topic of everything that we face online in these spaces, especially for those who call for more synergy, reconciliation, working together.