SPEAKER_00 0:09

Welcome to Between the Threads, a podcast exploring the threads that connect us: story, memory, identity, and meaning, and how they weave the fabric of peace in our lives and communities. Between the Threads is a joint initiative between Kahani and Narratives. Kahani is a nonprofit organization that amplifies storytelling for peace building. And Narratives is an award-winning planning and design firm based in Winnipeg, Canada.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

Welcome to the next episode of Between the Threads. On today's episode, we have Desiree Tereo. Desiree is an award-winning Metis land designer and partner at Narratives. Her work is grounded in trauma-informed design, weaving indigenous cultural resurgence, memory, and storytelling into landscape practice. She specializes in memorialization, Brazilian placemaking, and indigenous reclamation. Welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_04 1:06

Really happy to be here. Second time around. Second time around. You know, you get invited back. That's a good sign. I'm waiting and gearing up for the third time now.

SPEAKER_01 1:16

No, but this will be a good thing. Also, you are a partner in this podcast. So that probably influences that helps a little bit. But very eager and excited to be here. So we've been asking, we've been starting conversations with our guests by asking them to tell us what little versions of them were like. So what was little Desiree like? This is gonna be off the dome.

SPEAKER_04 1:37

Love it. Um Little Desiree. So little Desiree was definitely someone who loved to be outside. Um, the first thing that actually came in mind as you asked me that was this love for thunderstorms. And every time that it would thunderstorm, I would beg my parents to let me outside in bare feet and to go in the little puddles along the gutters and just dip my feet in. And me and my sister would be out there and just for hours with the thunder and lightning, probably a little bit dangerous, but also just purely connected to the water, to the land. And for all of my childhood, I grew up really connected to the land. Um my parents and my my family, my brother and sister and I, we would all go camp for long moments uh all throughout the summer. And um, oftentimes we were gorilla camping. Um, and by that I mean my family couldn't afford to be in the provincial parks. And so my grandparents would always find a place very adjacent. Love it. Uh, and park themselves out in the bush. And we'd find them and we'd all stay together, go blueberry picking, like all without the shoes on, all of that good stuff. So I would say my my childhood in Little Desiree was very much just uh a little adventurer connected to the places around her, the land. And I didn't realize how much of an impact that would have had on me until now when I'm reflecting on it.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

So yeah, yeah, beautiful, beautiful. I love the visual, yes, and having you know, knowing you, Des and having met your sister as well. I can totally see that in my head. Oh, yeah, beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 3:40

Little rambunctious kids just like, don't let us outside, let us go put our feet in the water.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. How did and you touched on this a little bit, but I'd love to hear a little bit more about how that how that inspired the journey into landscape design.

SPEAKER_04 3:59

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I have so many memories of just being on the land. And um, you know, my sister, you don't know my brother as well, but um all three of us were quite creative. We we didn't really um have a huge amount of toys. We always played outdoors often, and we had all these imaginary situations that we came up with. And oftentimes because we were camping, the forest and the trail systems became our playground. And um one of the things that we often did was play kitchen or play house in the forest. So we had different rooms that we would uh find in the forest, and we'd actually just see these natural clearings that were occurring in the land, and that became part of the story that we would come up with um in a in the way that we played. And um, as I grew up, I was really fascinated by space. I drew all the time and I was super interested in how um the connection to the places that we sit and play and work in, um, and and how do we draw those? And I was always drawing as a kid. I was drawing all the time. I was drawing um mostly landscapes and horses for some reason, probably a lot of horses. Yeah, yeah. So uh I just had just a strong um uh I guess pull towards drawing space. And I remember um thinking, you know what, I should try going into architecture. Right. Architecture seems to be an interesting place where I can combine my drawing skills and I can look at, you know, how space is made. And um, I remember talking to one of my uncles about it, and he's like, Don't don't go into architecture. You won't, you won't do much in that. Like, don't worry about it, do something else. Maybe, maybe go into tech, computer science. That'll that'll make sure that you're well salaried and you do good. And I was like, okay, so I compromised and I didn't end up going into architecture right away. And it wasn't until actually I um met my partner Rui, who um my fiance, I should say, Rui that uh that encouraged me to just follow my dreams and take the plunge. And so funnily enough, I entered the program thinking I'd be going into architecture. And the first day, um, I still remember a conversation about environmental design and landscape architecture. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, this exists. Right, this is a thing. And the key thing that stuck with me in that conversation was a professor at Diemar Straub at the University of Manitoba who said, Imagine designing the places where you have your first kiss or your first family picnic. And that right there was like that is exactly what I've always wanted to do. That it was just a aha moment. Beautiful connection there. And it just pulled me back to my childhood, running around in the forest, finding these clearings and associating them with different stories, and that became how I how I connected to this place. And so it it really allowed me to explore this relationship between story, land, and my memories, and that became a really strong part of my life.

SPEAKER_01 7:54

I love that so much because you know, a huge part of the work of stories is to either evoke imagination or hold space for imagination. And you know, we we always talk about what makes a good story is a story that has room for the listener to breathe.

SPEAKER_02 8:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

And in a lot of ways, when I when I think about landscape design, it's about designing spaces that allow for that imagination to come alive.

SPEAKER_04 8:23

Oh, absolutely. I mean, there's so many layers in our cities, in our landscapes, and um not only are the layers from an ecological perspective, you know, fire, flooding, um, uh, ecological damage, all of that plays into it, but also from a social and cultural perspective, stories on the land, landmark places, places that mean something to people. And it's a big role uh in landscape design to determine, you know, what stories get told, which don't get told, which are hidden, or which need space to be told. Oh, absolutely. So yeah, it becomes a really powerful.

SPEAKER_01 9:10

That's a great segue of like thinking about, you know, what we're reflecting on um in this season is how cities tell their story. And I'd love for you to talk a little bit about your experience in memorialization in particular.

SPEAKER_04 9:26

Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_01 9:27

And how memorialization can be one of the ways that cities tell their stories.

SPEAKER_04 9:32

Yeah, absolutely. So this is kind of a natural connection to where I ended up landing and realizing landscape architecture was something that I wanted to do. And it quickly allowed me to uncover that, you know, stories actually so important to how we look at the places that we live and play and and remember and reflect in. I was thinking about um indigenous representation on the land. And uh also at the time, um, the calls to action for missing and murdered indigenous women and girls and two-spirited folks came out. And it really dawned on me that you know, our connection to memory, our connection to how we remember is such an important part of um um our public realm and how we see ourselves in the public realm. And if those stories aren't present, then how do we how do we allow ourselves to remember?

SPEAKER_02 10:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:48

And I I just remember reading that uh calls to action and calls for justice and thinking, you know, there's there's gotta be more we can do, and specifically how much the land holds and what the land wants to tell us. And how can us as landscape architects and designers of the land, helpers of the land be able to peel those uh layers back and share those those hidden stories that are embedded into the landscape. Beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 11:19

So when you think about if you ought to describe the word memorialization to to someone, yeah, tell us what is memorialization.

SPEAKER_04 11:31

Yeah, great, great question. Um for me, memorialization is um to be able to honor and reflect on um the past, but also the present and the what can happen in our futures. And it allows us to um be able to reflect on you know what single moment time in history or memory that has happened and reflect on how that empowers us to uh draw from for healing, to draw from for reclamation, to draw from for um creating space for ourselves. So memorialization is a bit of a um a lot of different threads coming together um to hold space for all of those who came before us and all of those who come come after us.

SPEAKER_01 12:28

Beautiful. I love that because it makes me think of the power of memorialization. It's it seems like it's essentially a way to tell the many stories that form a story. Absolutely. And it's you know, if we're reflecting on stories of the past, what that looks like, and moving into stories for the future, it's really a a broad, holistic, multi-layered, very nuanced conversation.

SPEAKER_04 12:59

Absolutely. And I think with memorialization, there's also this aspect of not only, you know, storytelling from um a perspective of cultural um nuances, like cultural stories that are being passed down, but also from a place of you know, socially um thing something may have happened that impacted generation after generation. And so that that needs to be memorialized in some way, whether good or or bad. Um and that's that's another thing about memorialization. It's not necessarily memorializing something that um has been explicitly negative for our community, it could also be something positive, yeah. Um, and all of that helps us hold together uh those stories, those combined stories um that shape our identity, that shape our places.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

Well, and it's also just being more intentional about all those parts of the story, right? I'm thinking of um for some of the work with uh with Gothigo Gings. So for those who may not know, this is an initiative uh that is being led by survivors of the Kenora St. Mary's Indian Residential School. The survivors have gathered every couple of weeks for the last few years to reflect of about their journey through colonization, journey through uh the Indian residential school system and what happened to them there. And then what does healing look like? What does path forward look like? And I'm reminded of some of the early days um sitting with the survivors, they would talk about how they wanted to tell their story to Canadians and also wanted to make sure that yes, Canadians understood this the story of the residential schools, but they didn't want to be defined by that story. And they said we need them to understand who we are, so we need to tell the creation story in a manner that they get it and also tell the story of our healing and what we look forward to. So when you were saying, you know, when you were talking about part of memorialization is the future, yeah, it it occurs to me that it's a really beautiful opportunity to reflect on so many things.

SPEAKER_04 15:28

Yeah, absolutely. And I I will say with that project, you know, um a lot of the conversations with survivors led us to having a conversation about a land-based memorial. Yeah. And um, because memorialization, it can happen in many different forms, right? It can happen in through art, it can happen through song, through language, through um cultural centers, museums. Um, but the land is also an important part of the story because the land carries memory.

SPEAKER_02 16:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:04

And what I found when working with the survivors, there was a clear conversation and need that, you know, there needs to be something on the land that that holds all of these stories and also honors and brings dignity to those who never made it home. Yeah. And and part of that that conversation with them was about, okay, how do we tell these stories through the land, but also provide that space for healing? And and a lot of it was to be determined through procession, if you will, a trail that uh allows people to experience, you know, this darkness to lightness in the actual design. And so it's it's interesting to think about how memorialization can start to manifest in a physical sense as well. Right. And that's been my kind of torch that I've been carrying along the way is you know, how do we how do we show people that memorialization on the land is possible in different ways and how the land can help us uncover those?

SPEAKER_01 17:13

That's such a beautiful framing of memorialization. Because I um earlier in the season we had um um we had a guest, we were talking about museums and the role that museums can play in, you know, in representation and storytelling and so on. Hearing you talk about land, um land carrying memory feels really special. I'm reflecting on how one of my favorite places whenever I go back home is this um uh it's a UNESCO World Heritage Site, it's the Palace of Mirrors that's part of the Lahore um forth Shishmal. Um and it's a beautiful, like the architecture is absolutely stunning. Um and what I love about it is as you walk into this massive courtyard, it has these sort of channels where they used to have like candles and water and so on, and a central, central place where they would have performers and music and so on. Um and I even as a kid, the first time I went to that place, it was as if the place had come alive. And you know, whether it was something I had seen before or heard of before, you know, as a kid, you don't necessarily know those things and also active imagination ID vibes there. I I felt as if I could hear the echoes of the land and echoes of that that space.

SPEAKER_04 18:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

And so I've always held this like belief, if you will, that objects carry memory, place carries memory, land carries memory. So it was beautiful hearing from you that that's that's something that is entirely possible.

SPEAKER_04 18:58

Absolutely. I mean, that um that is something we talk about actually a little bit in landscape architecture, and you know, it's the spirit of place, the genius loci. What what really uh speaks to you when you go to a place? And there are places that just evoke this complete um exploration of all senses. Like you can use your smelling, you're seeing, you're hearing, sure, you're experiencing. Um, and all of that is so ingrained into your memory and how it connects back. And and I think um that spirit of place is something that can get lost really easily when you have so many layered stories and with cities, sure, of course, it becomes extremely complex. And so those those UNESCO World Heritage sites and um seeing cities that care for the heritage of their cities, all of that plays such a big role and huge caretaking for the memories that have been there for a long time.

SPEAKER_01 20:07

Sure. And I also love like thinking about memorialization, how you described it. Uh it's an invitation to go uh beyond the assumption that we can only memorialize in buildings, yes, in built architecture, if you will. And so I love the I don't know if versatility is the right word, but I love the freedom to really take a moment to honor that land and land itself can be a mode to tell the story.

SPEAKER_04 20:40

Absolutely. I mean, I think for many people when they think about memorialization, they probably think of cemeteries or memorial markers. Um that's part of it, but it's it's not the full picture. And and this is what I'm trying to get at with a bit of the the fact that sometimes memorialization isn't just um about, you know, grieving, reflection, um, or or something horrible that's happened, which is also very important to memorialize, but it can also be acts of celebration and acts of remembering um the good as well. And so that's where yeah, the land can play such an important role in carrying that in other than um marking and and statues, you can actually look at the land as an invitation. And now what we're seeing is people doing things like healing gardens or spirit spirit forests, where um instead of a gravestone, it's it's trees dedicated to to family members or stories of those family members. Right. Um, that allow us to just think about space in a different way and the spirit of those spaces and how they may be able to evoke certain reflections. Reflections and dialogues to all those who come to those spaces.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

When we think about memorialization, one other thought that comes up for me is what I hear is that it's a way to tell a story. Yeah. A very, very nuanced story. Whether it's a story of a people, story of an event, story of something. How do you how do you make sure that story is representative of all those parts and that it can actually land? So, you know, particularly Desm, thinking about your work in MMIWG, yeah, tell us a little bit about how do you make sure that a story is honored and told in a way that is going to resonate with people.

SPEAKER_04 22:48

Yeah, I think so. For context, you know, I've I've been very grateful and humbled to be part of looking at the redevelopment of the Alexander Docks and how this place will act as not only an active public space and may be maintained as a public space, but also as a place for memorial towards missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls. And that has been part of my journey for a very, very long time, as I'd mentioned, thinking about, you know, how can these spaces be used for awareness, dialogue, reflection, um, but also how they can also allow us to heal. And I remember when I was originally working on this, I was originally working on it from a thesis perspective. And so I did go into a deep dive of all the stories that happened at this place. And there was the 1919 strike, there was um uh Tina Fontaine that was found there, and there was um many other women who were found there. There was uh a homeless man who also saved um an individual who was drowning there, and there was there's so many stories in that place that deserve are deserving of being told. And how do we hold all of that? Um and and then how do we also ensure that it lands for those who are visiting those places? And the visitor also becomes an important part of how you contemplate the space. So when we were originally looking at all this, it really became clear to me that the important part is for the story of the families of missing and murdered indigenous women and girls had a say. Um, and then that became really important. That um idea of what this place means to them and what they need from this space in order to have continued healing, to have dignity for all those who never made it home, and um to have a place for ceremony uh at the end of the day. And so that that mattered. That mattered the most. And then the the other piece that mattered was, of course, those who are visiting. How do we make them have an opportunity to build awareness, to acknowledge, knowing that this might not always be the case? People might not be ready to even uh be able to witness or listen or see or reflect on, but we can build um opportunities for for that through this. And it always came back to the families asking for space for them, and inherently that would also allow visitors to be welcomed into sharing and uh acknowledging and building awareness and reflection and dialogue on what happened. And so even just building spaces that uh create space for underrepresentative groups can create um space for acknowledgement for those we might be trying to connect to the story. And um, as I mentioned, you know, they may not be ready to acknowledge or be part of that conversation yet, but now they know that this place is here. They know that there's a place of learning, there's a place of healing. And so that that already plants the seed towards acknowledgement and awareness.

SPEAKER_01 26:29

That's a really that's a really important point when we think about the other part of the equation here, if you will. Um, you know, in my in my work, I talk a lot about the relationship between the storyteller and the story listener.

SPEAKER_04 26:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

As a storyteller, if I walk into a room, I don't necess I don't necessarily always know what stories I'm gonna be telling in that in that context, in that space. And it might be something about the room or something about what someone asks, or the way they express their curiosity that might evoke a certain part of a story that is to be told. So the story listener, if you will, carries such deep responsibility, in my view, as well. So in the work of memorialization, especially when it comes to like public spaces, though, you know, I can curate, not always, but I can try and curate who my story listeners are going to be. Or if I'm invited to be a speaker, typically, you know, the organizers will give me a sense of what to expect. But when you're when you're designing for public spaces, these are open to everybody. How do you imagine the role of the visitor in that in that equation to these memorials that are like really sacred in a sense?

SPEAKER_04 27:54

Absolutely. Well, a lot of the conversations that we had about inviting visitors in was um, of course, programming and activating this as a public space is part of the healing journey. Um and that became really integral to talking about, you know, who is the type of visitor that comes here. It's people who live in the area, who play there, who want to get connected to the riverfront. So it's about um creating spaces that allow people to um stay connected to these important places and not actually isolate them out of these spaces. Um, and that became really integral with a lot of the conversations we had with families. It was not about um creating space just for them, but uh for a place of healing that includes all of our futures and is a place that people can see as activated and um uh that allows people to stay stay connected to one another and and build compassion for one another. And we can only do that by creating active places that people feel attracted to come to. But at the uh at the same time, there was also a conversation about, you know, the sacredness of this place and how do we how do we maintain that sacredness? And through a lot of the conversations, it was also about building spaces that were specific to families who were coming down for dignity and healing that have a bit more of um that respite or privacy for reflection that may not be as connected to some of the more programmed areas, but that allowed for um those spaces to still be utilized by families and to have that that um that contemplative space. Yeah. So by allowing ourselves to think about, you know, the unique different needs of how you bring people together, um, but also the just the journey of connecting them to this story and bringing awareness to this story, it it was all part of the memorialization process towards towards healing. Yeah. So which is was the core of of you know these places. It's it's yeah, core and central to how we evolve uh in our humanity and our and building compassion for each other and coming together at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

You know, it's it occurs to me when I hear when I hear you talk about how it's a very intentional process of bringing those voices to to life, to giving them space to breathe. So from creating a space where the families themselves have some privacy, some respite, some opportunity for healing to being mindful of who the visitors are going to be, to perhaps also consider that when we're talking about contested histories, sometimes those spaces become very political in nature. So there's always this risk of somebody feeling like they can act all weird in that space and so on. So there's lots of lots of different variables and considerations, and I appreciate the intentionality that goes into memorialization. But in the process of designing a memorial, when uh it sounds like there's a lot of space need honoring whose stories are being told and who are impacted by those stories. So, you know, the families of you know, for example, the victims who've experienced exploitation at that site, if you will. So there's that part of the um the involvement, and then once the memorial is done, then it's the visitor part of the equation. But I really appreciate that by making sure that the space is designed to have an active involvement from people who are part of the design itself, it's almost like it's a continuity. So it's not just memory created and now you pass it on to someone else to care to care take, but it's very much like an active, ongoing agency building process.

SPEAKER_04 32:26

Yeah, absolutely. And I think um that's a bit of the the uniqueness about bringing and uncovering all the layered stories, yeah. Um, but also um just to recognize, you know, what places mean to people, the memories that are there and and to have like part of the the design work is actually just the process, the process of talking, listening, uh storytelling. That all plays a big role in what becomes memorialized and how it is uh taken care of over time. And so yeah, you're you're absolutely right. And it also makes me think of you know the Ketagoging memorial. Um, a lot of the survivors talked about, you know, edible um shrubbery uh fruit trees and how that can play a legacy for them as well, to be uh sharing this place with the future generations and to be picking berries or picking apples and how that becomes a part of this caretaking of place and passing down of um memory that's so associated to these to these places. So, yes, uh absolutely process, yeah. And the continuity of the visitor isn't just the only thing keeping it going, but also the community that's that's upholding that memory as well.

SPEAKER_01 33:57

And the more that community is a part of the process, the more it's co-created, the more it's um it it continues to live exactly as long as the place is nurtured and cared for. I I love that. So when we think about our city, when we think about Winnipeg, and we think about how what role memorialization can play in telling the many stories of our city, what should we be thinking about? How do we do a better job of telling more nuanced stories?

SPEAKER_04 34:32

Yeah, I'm starting to see this um a lot around our city. You know, I've been working um and connecting with the exchange district biz board, which um I think the exchange district is such a valuable part of our city. It's um, you know, all of these we're biased because we're biased, we're we're in the exchange, absolutely. But it's a it's a great uh starting point to think about how we preserve these stories. And uh it's funny because uh just recently we actually sat down with an elder grandfather Alan Sutherland, who spoke about you know the history of the exchange district and the stories that aren't told from a First Nations uh and Metis perspective and the Metis River plots that once existed, the way the street names are named after those families and so on, and those little nuances that we may not um pick up on um at first glance. And so um I always come back to the exchange is a place that is is really looking at upholding memory. And I think um when we look at other spaces across our city, there's so many opportunities to build up, whether that be through um public spaces, whether that be through murals on the ground. Um, but art as a bit of a connector to those stories becomes such a such an important part. Um, and of course, the land, the land plays such an important part. And we have so many park spaces um that allow us to be able to reflect on, reflect on all the stories. And um that's what I I always encourage when we're looking at memorialization in our cities, you know, how can we make sure that we're looking at what stories are told here and which stories aren't told. Yeah. And uh to reflect on that and uh allow ourselves to think a little bit more deeply about the places we come from and the places we visit.

SPEAKER_01 36:48

Yeah. Well, and it's just building on that, you know, I'll I'll tie it back to the idea of a story listener. I think as those who are engaging with the space, whether you're driving around or walking around, we're often in our heads, right? Where we have beautiful murals over the city, we have memorials, and of course we can go so much further with better memorialization, deeper, more nuanced um engagement with space and land. And also I think we can take a moment to appreciate and just or just look around at what stories are being told. Yeah and maybe asking that question of each other a little bit more frequently of like, what's the story here? What am I what am I seeing? What am I experiencing? And like whose story is really missing. Because I don't I don't think we ask I don't think we can ask the question of whose story is missing if we haven't even taken the time to understand the story.

SPEAKER_04 37:50

Yeah, and and I think that's part of the role of memorialization is how can you uncover those stories and how can you bring it out. And that's where process and conversation with community and connection with community matters. And as a city, I see us building on that already, where you know, we're coming out of you know, COVID and isolation and community um just starting to regather strength and you know, reclaim, reclaim stories. And part of it is like, how do we build more spaces in our cities to be able to share stories and then to also memorialize them within the fabric of our cities so that they become inherent parts of and in and important features in our in our city? They make up they make us special and unique. They either become UNESCO World Heritage Sites or they become places that people gather at, for example, the forks. Um, all of this plays an important role in in how we um build on the layers of our city and and take time to bring the spirit of place. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:04

So if you were putting together a list of um, so you know, you have these visitors coming to Winnipeg, they're gonna be here let's say for a month. Ooh. And you want them to, I don't know, see Winnipeg.

SPEAKER_02 39:21

Like really see Winnipeg.

SPEAKER_01 39:24

What goes on their list? What's Desiree's recommended list?

SPEAKER_04 39:30

Okay, well, I mean, I have to say uh the Forks is definitely one of the core places that I would recommend because it is um central to the story of Winnipeg. It's where so many communities and cultures have gathered for so many years and is really the ancestral lands of Red River Meteis and First Nations. Um, and it was a gathering place for thousands of years. So that place is really naturally um such an important place, and it still maintains that it has memorialized this aspect of gathering uh and connection. So I always think start there. Um, and then of course, the exchange district is a place that I think speaks to the city of Winnipeg and is so incredibly important. There's um so many aspects to it that allow us to see uh the way that Winnipeg um revolutionized itself. It it became the city that it became because of industry and industry development. And so you can really see that imprint in the exchange district. The other place is that I think about are um well St. Boniface, because it's so connected to my childhood. It's where I grew up, and and also it has such a connection to um French Metis community through the river plots. You can actually see it through the way that the the land looks like is parceled out for different homes, but also from a perspective of um how these small little neighborhoods and areas and communities around the city all started to combine. So you had St. Boniface, Transcona, all of these already-made communities that then connected back into a larger, uh, larger place uh now Winnipeg. And um all there's so many other places. I my mind also goes to so many parks, but I want to specifically highlight the Assiniboine Park. Um, it's an incredible exploration of um ecological safekeeping and and um honoring the land and creating an incredible public space for people to access green space. Um, and it shares so much of Winnipeg's ecological footprint in terms of the trees that we have, the types of um uh fauna and flora that that have been here for millennia. So it's a really beautiful space for that. And the last one I'll I'll mention is um the Living Prairie Museum, which I think is just a testament to what was in this place before any of Winnipeg City. It was this place that was um prairie, prairie grass, the bison and the herds of bison that were all here. And then, of course, um the ability to see the sky and the openness of the sky.

SPEAKER_01 42:48

Beautiful.

SPEAKER_04 42:49

And uh Winnipeg is surprisingly um like I I don't people I don't know if people realize it often, but the sky plays such a major role in our city, and it is one of the things that most people that I know who are visiting are noticing right away is like, oh, there's so much sky here, it's so vast. And the Living Prairie Museum is an important place to beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 43:13

For someone who has such a complicated relationship with the city, I'm feeling a little inspired right now. So thank you. Um, and you know, and that's the beauty of when I hear you talk about memorialization, about the the power of memorialization as a vehicle, if you will, to be able to tell more careful stories, more intentional stories, I'm also reminded deeply of the responsibility of how we engage with any space. Because at the end of the day, we can design the most profound, most engaging, most like deeply meaningful places. But if you're not ready, and you had said that earlier, but if you're not ready for the story, then you may not. Not be able to get from the story what comes out of it. So you know, being more intentional as we move through spaces, whether that's our city or any other city for that matter, it to me that also speaks of a deeper relationship with the world around us, deeper relationship with the land.

SPEAKER_04 44:20

I completely agree. I think um it's very easy in our day and age to just move through space, find the most efficient way to build our public realms or the most efficient housing on budget, cost-wise, uh most efficient green spaces. And what ends up happening is you actually strip story from those places, you strip memory from those places. And I don't know about you, but when I'm actually going to places that I am encountering for the first time that I know have a richness and depth to them, or or perhaps that gets revealed to me through some panels, or through the way that uh trail system is leading me to some some place, or um uh just the way a bench is is perfectly under this one tree that just gets your mind thinking about you know what what is the meaning of this place and and what what is it telling me? Um you're naturally drawn to those places. So absolutely memorial memorialization plays such a a big role in allowing ourselves to be intentional with the places that we visit and the places that we go to.

SPEAKER_01 45:41

Yeah, that's well said, well said. And thinking of the um the last thing I'll say about the intentionality pieces, you know, years ago when my parents were visiting here, they um they thought briefly about whether or not they wanted to live here. And it was a failed experiment because they came here like towards the start of the winter, and winter is tough almost season for anyone to to want to be in Winnipeg. Um, and I remember, you know, other reasons that they didn't want to be here, they they would complain about uh the bread slices are too thick, the drumsticks are too big, or you you can't even smell the mango unless you touch it. And I remember asking my dad one time, like, what's the big deal that you can't? Of course it's a big deal. Like, I know it, I've been annoyed about it, but I wanted to hear from him what the big deal was that you can't smell the mango. And he's like, But that if we don't smell it, we don't know what lands it comes from. And it's a way to honor the lands. And so it wasn't it, it was beyond just how beautiful this mango was, it was perfect, it had a little sheen on it and everything, yeah, but it didn't have a smell. And when I hear, when I think about memorialization, I think that's the richness of it. If it's connected to the land, if it carries all the different stories of grief, of celebration, of identity, of complicated history, belonging, all of those things that can be just such a rich way to learn of the history of a place.

SPEAKER_04 47:14

Yeah, so well said.

SPEAKER_01 47:16

What lies next for Dez?

SPEAKER_04 47:18

Well, um, oh man, I'm gonna have dinner.

SPEAKER_01 47:25

I'm just gonna eat. You know, as a foodie, I was surprised that you didn't throw any food recommendations in there. You put me on the spot. So I was like, I don't know what I'm gonna. I was like, there's gotta be at least five recommendations. There's many recommendations.

SPEAKER_04 47:40

I probably should have added a few in there. But in terms of what's next for me, I think um I I always come back to, you know, um, you and you touched on this a little bit, the the responsibility of the visitor. I also always think about the responsibility I carry by holding these stories and these memories and how do I bring them honor uh and dignity. And um, I think a lot of the times it's it's through connection, it's through conversation, it's through that intentional dialogue and process that allows us to identify what it means to you. And I think at the end of the day, memorialization, that's that's what it's all about. It's unveiling what does this place mean to you? Because that's the going to be the most important thing. Yeah. So that's that's what I'm leaving with.

SPEAKER_01 48:39

Keep honoring that responsibility. Thank you. Oh, thank you so much. Always, always so good to talk. And we don't feel so good to talk to. I know talk. So this feels very, very special. Yes. Thank you for making time and beautiful hearing hearing just how rich a word, just one word, like memorialization, and how much we can't add that to the dictionary. It's too long of a there's so much. There's so much to it.

SPEAKER_04 49:08

There is so much to it. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Yeah.