SPEAKER_01 0:09

Welcome to Between the Threads, a podcast exploring the threads that connect us: story, memory, identity, and meaning, and how they weave the fabric of peace in our lives and communities. Between the Threads is a joint initiative between Kahani and Narratives. Kahani is a nonprofit organization that amplifies storytelling for peace building. And Narratives is an award-winning planning and design firm based in Winnipeg, Canada. Welcome to the next episode of Between the Threads. On today's episode, we explore how music, protests, everyday sounds tell overlapping stories of belonging and change. And the guest on our episode today is Orit Shimoni. Orit is a nomadic independent singer-songwriter of nearly 20 years. Formerly an academic, she left teaching to pursue music full-time, touring across Europe, Canada, and the US, often staying in people's homes and traveling by public transit. She has released 13 acclaimed albums and has been nominated for Canadian Folk Music Awards. She's also an essayist and painter. Her work explores art as a space for empathy and connection, leveraging her personal and political themes. In recent years, she has also led self-expression workshops helping others find and share their voice. How are you doing? Thank you so much for having me on. Of course. So the first question I usually like to ask people is what was little them like? So what was little Obi like?

SPEAKER_00 1:45

Um, this question always makes me smile and laugh because I feel like little me is almost exactly the same as big me. And that is really deeply comforting and really deeply disturbing to me at the same time. I feel tell me why. Tell me why. Well, because you would hope that there's some evolution or that the sort of cycle of questions your soul is asking at some point gets some answers. And I really feel like the things I'm impassioned about were there. I mean, that and the the part that I find comforting is like the the my sort of soul SOUL concerns were there from as long as I can remember being conscious. Like I remember being able to think about my thoughts from as young as four years old. Like having insights and and and mulling them around. And I remember just being sort of lost in thought a lot at a very, very young age. So there's like, you know, the things that would make me cry and the things that would, the things I'm fierce about and the things I'm I get angry about are so the same in a way that um yeah, like I'm like, I guess, I guess consistency is good, but also where where do I where can I trace evolution and where can I trace development? And I'm not always sure I can. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

Yeah, I love that. And you know, it reminds me just recently I was having this conversation with my parents where we were talking about a trip to Saudi Arabia for Hajj a few when I was I was only four years old. And I started telling my parents about, oh, I remember this, that, and the other. And it was in a lot of detail. Yeah. And they both sort of looked at me and said, How can you possibly remember all this? I'm like, oh no, no, no. I even remember that conversation, and I remember so many fine details, and I remember how I felt.

SPEAKER_00 3:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

And I think I worried my parents a little bit because they thought, like, we're not sure you're supposed to remember this much detail.

SPEAKER_00 3:51

So I think some people do. I mean, my siblings, I have two sisters, and they always say, like, how can you remember that? But I and I think once you kind of step into a memory, it you you remember more. I've worked with seniors to to help them write their song or for interviews that I would write their song from. And there was a a woman in her 80s who like I would ask leading questions, and she I remember her going, like, I haven't thought about this in so long. And she said it's like an accordion, which I love because I play accordion. Um, and she's like, you open it, you start to open it, and more and more opens as you open. So I think if you're inclined to go back into those spaces, it there's cupboard doors of more memories to be opening there. I think you just have to want to.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

Yeah. Oh, I love how poetic that is. And you know, in a way, in a way, we're always telling people that the pathway to healing is to find love for the inner child, to find ways to be kinder to the child within us. And so I think there's something really beautiful about how you how you talked about, you know, in in some ways you are still that, still that child.

SPEAKER_00 5:11

So the same. Yeah, I feel like there's there's just not. I don't think I've really lost, and in that sense, it's comforting. I I don't think I've lost my inner path. I don't think I've strayed ever really strayed very far. Not and that path is challenging and has its um, it's narrowed in a way. I think when I was younger, I thought I could live all the fantasies through and out. And I I definitely know now that that's not possible. Um and that's probably the biggest hardship is like you're there's you have to sacrifice certain paths to live other ones out, but they're not divergent from my, you know, younger inner purpose at all. And that's been really satisfying and gratifying to acknowledge that.

SPEAKER_01 5:55

Well, that's beautiful. So speaking of pathways, yeah. Uh in your bio, we talked a little bit about your journey from academia into where you are today. So tell us a little bit about how that was shaped.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

Well, I went in, you know, I did my undergrad in literature and history and musicology, which was just sort of like a five side quest, a fun side quest. Um, and then I took a break, I was teaching, and I had, I knew I needed to go back into um like a structured inquiry. I had academic questions left over from literature, and then I had these life questions, and I was at that point, I was living in Montreal, and I was surrounded by a lot of intelligent people, uh, which is always a luxury. And I just, I just had these burning questions in me. But I was also in that time frame really discovering my voice as a songwriter, you know, more seriously than I had before, or maybe like after a gap of not really exploring that voice. So I was starting to really get involved in the music scene there, but also uh a school teacher and also kind of processing trauma from political situations. And so I was just like an intense young woman with really deep questions. And I was trying to figure out like where do I go back to? I don't, I don't want to go back into the literature realm because it it felt really limited. It didn't, it didn't ever really address the best question about literature, which is why is it good? We never really got there. They were talked about similes and metaphors and alliteration and historical context to the authors, but we never ever touched on like, but why is this magic? So that was like a leftover question. Why is Shakespeare magic? How does the magic part work? How does the magic part work? Um, and then I was, you know, very invested in religious conflict because I had lived through it and thought, well, maybe I'll do religious studies. But the religious studies were descriptive of religion, they weren't philosophical. The program never went deep into philosophy. So I'm like, okay, well, that's not for me. And then I looked at philosophy. The philosophy department wanted me to choose a philosopher and write a dissertation about the philosopher. And I was like, no, I A, I don't want to choose one, and B, I'm the philosopher. I can't write a dissertation about myself. So that wasn't an option. And and then I accidentally stumbled upon uh a theology grad program, which I didn't know existed, and I never would have looked for because I grew up completely secular in an incredibly secular household. Uh, in fact, with with not just neutral secular, but quite a disdain for religion. And I thought, like, what the hell? No one intended, am I gonna be doing in a theology department, which is traditionally extremely Christian? Um but the descriptive blurb on the program said, Do you have deep questions about, you know, your place in the universe? And this is the the department where you could explore that. And I went, okay, well that what a great line. Yeah. And so I went and had a meeting and I said, look, I'm not only not not Christian, um, I'm not religious at all. Like I'm culturally Jewish, but I'm I'm not even that religiously. So, like, can I be in this program? And they're like, Well, I mean, they didn't quite say it this way, but they were basically saying, we have to let you in because we're trying to be an academic program now. So it's like, okay, well, great. Um and I I loved every second of that program. And I um basically did a philosophy, I did philosophy work, the work that I wanted to be doing. Um, and then just sort of sewed in the bit of religious philosophy to to make it fit the department's um umbrella. But it was a beautiful thing to do because I was, um, I wrote about ethics and I wrote about ethics and um ethics and language in particular, and it dealt with one of my deep questions. Like, if you're gonna believe in God, uh is there a way for you to use scripture in a way that doesn't lead you to like think it gets cool to kill a bunch of people for what God said you do? Like, and I and I was like, if you're gonna be talking to religious people, use their language, use their their, you know, source text to show them that there's another way to look at this. And that was deeply critical to me to be able to do. Um, and then it all it also, I know this is a very long-winded answer, but no, not enough people ask me about my academic background. This is this is so fascinating. Thank you. Um, what I ended up doing is philosophically proving that metaphor is the most ethical form of communication. Yeah. I know I get a little. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:35

My heart just like fell right open. That is so beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 11:41

Thank you. Well, it was, you know, philosophically sound to prove it. I used ethics philosophy and linguistic philosophy and then religious philosophy as a sort of triad of proof um to show that they shared a struct, like a symbolic structure. And I and but the beautiful thing to me about Bab is that it answered, it dealt with my questions as an educator, it dealt with my questions about religious conflict, and it then fundamentally and foundationally justified me going out into the world as a songwriter and showing you that it was in fact an ethical endeavor and not just all about my ego of wanting to perform. So it was, it gave me the footing, the sort of um philosophical, ethical footing to then go out into the world as a songwriter and go like this is my form of activism. And that was really important for me to be able to like solidify for myself before I quit everything to join the art world.

SPEAKER_01 12:43

And I was like, well, no, I I just yeah, I just love how deeply anchored that is. Like people talk about, you know, having a moral compass, and that always feels like such a heavy terminology, and you know, whose morality and based on what worldview and what system and what upbringing and everything else and social context. Uh I just really appreciate that there was such thoughtfulness around what it means and how do you go around, how do you go about bringing that magic into the world? And also what a beautiful way to answer the question about what the magic is. And in my mind, when I hear that, the magic is in unpacking the power of the metaphor. And that is so beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

And the magic is, and that was one of the you know things in the thesis too, is that uh like it defined just the moment of transcendence. Um and it and it it answered the question of like, in order to be transcendent, you do not threaten your own subjectivity, which is always everybody's fear. And look at the world right now when people are so locked down in their positions on things, and they're so afraid of it being dislodged by the other person's argument that there's this deafness and total refusal to listen because people are so afraid of losing their own subjective hold. The definition of ethics that I used was based on a philosopher named Emmanuel Levinas, and his whole take on ethics was ethics is not a body of knowledge that you own. Ethics is an event, and it's the event of the encounter with the other. That's the definition, yeah. It's humongous.

SPEAKER_01 14:31

Oh, say that again. Say that again. That was really good.

SPEAKER_00 14:35

Ethics is not a body of knowledge that you own. Ethics is an event, it is the event of the encounter with the other.

SPEAKER_01 14:47

I did not think we were even going to talk about ethics today, but this is so good.

SPEAKER_00 14:51

But it's everything because when you then go back to like my little craft of songwriting, which I, you know, belittle in a humorous way, obviously, I think it's the best thing in the world. But that is the event of song too, because I write, you know, I I write I write with full subjectivity, but it's not really a complete song until it is heard by another that is outside of my own subjectivity. And what happens in that moment is transcendence, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:18

And that that also in any odd form, and and I think that is that is the magic. It's exactly it's the it's the courage to share, yeah, the the willingness to be able to put this into the world to say, okay, yeah, now we see how this is received.

SPEAKER_00 15:37

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And then, you know, incredible. So that's the transition, because obviously there was you know many practical applications for being a teacher in the classroom with all of that. You know, I am not a body of knowledge imparting it to my students. There's an exchange with them. And the moment of transcendence and teaching is when, you know, how they receive it and what they do with it. So there it just was like, okay, this is a theory on uh it's very philosophical and it's very um anchored in language, but it's a way of, you know, it's like, well, okay, well, that that's great if you work in the field of metaphor, but what about everything else? It's applicable as a as a dynamic structure in every human exchange we put in. I bring myself to you, knowing that your otherness is going to disrupt my subjectivity, but not annihilate it. And it's going to create this new thing that that that didn't exist before.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

This new mutual relationship. And I love I love the application of that to how relational it makes your art form. And you know, reflecting on the reflecting on how we met um at the women wage peace event here in um in Winnipeg, which was essentially bringing uh these incredible, these incredible women and allies from uh from Israel, from Palestine to talk about what peace, peace can look like. And I just remember when I first met you, and I don't even I think I talked about just how in talking to you it felt like there was lightness and light around the conversation, and that's how we sort of jumped into getting to know a little bit more about each other. The the way that you shared those three beautiful songs that you shared that night, I remember thinking this is what relational work looks like. It was done, and I don't think you you talked at all about your philosophy or what lives and so on, but just the manner in which you shared your craft was very relational. And it was almost a permission for me to enter into that conversation about awards. And I thought that to me was the magic.

SPEAKER_00 17:57

I don't think I could ask for a higher praise of what I do. Really and truly, because I mean, having done that philosophy work as a lead-in to going out into the world as an artist, uh, it it gave me a mission statement. And when people come up to me after shows, you know, some people will just say, like, you're you're a great guitar player, you're a beautiful beautiful voice. And I mean, like, that's cool. Obviously, I I I'm also just a musician. There's a layer of music, musicianship to what I'm bringing, and it's nice to have those appreciated. But the people who I have had at so many of my shows someone come up and say, I felt seen and understood by your songs. Um, and that's like, and I I I remember making a I don't remember the moment, but I know that I articulated this rule for myself with my songwriting. It if people should be able to find themselves in the song. I heard a quote, I can't remember who it's by, um, and it was a about a songwriting, a songwriter about songwriting, and they said, When you share your songs to an audience, they shouldn't feel like they're reading your diary. They should feel like they're reading their diary. And it's like, wow. That's good. But if if I have an insight that makes me want, like a uh, you know, my process is usually like a line in my head will appear and I'll go, that's a good line for a song. That instinct has everything to do with I'm experiencing this thought and feeling, but I've just tapped into something that's way bigger than me that I know a lot of other people think and feel. That's the that's when I know it should be a song. And if I don't feel that way, nobody needs to hear a song about my whatever. It's gotta be bigger than me. Otherwise, why is it? And it's not art otherwise.

SPEAKER_01 19:57

Also, and then I think, you know, there's a there's a remarkable I talk a lot about balance and I'm sort of questioning myself these days about why am I so obsessed with the word balance. But one of the things that that really stands out for me is when there's a fine balance between sharing your art and leaving room for others. And you know what also makes art relatable is if you can see the soul of the artist and it's it's bearing that soul, not necessarily through words or expressions. I think there's something deeper that happens. And I don't know, I don't even know what to call it, but there's a way that that vulnerability comes into the world. It may not be vulnerability, it may be like so much strength and power and everything else that goes with it. But there's something about how you show up in a space that says I am willing to learn, to move, to be shifted. And that I am sharing these snippets, these little fragments of my soul in the sort of collective interest of making meaning together.

SPEAKER_00 21:11

Yes, and collective, it's the collective, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:15

It's the collective. So tell me a little bit about it. So yeah. Yeah, yeah. When we um when we last talked, um this was yeah, this was at the Women Wage Weace event. One of the other things I was really struck by in there was so much from that event, by the way, that I that still floats in my my being. Yeah. But one of the other things that really struck me about your music was how you carried pain and beauty in equal measure. And you held space for both of those to to happen in the room because I was watching you and I Was watching the audience and I was watching what was emerging in that room together, and I was like, wow, like that that's rare. So walk, yeah, walk us through a little bit of what that looks like for you, carrying those pieces.

SPEAKER_00 22:14

Well, you're making me cry. So that I always say if you cry, it's because you've hit upon some truth. Um I really, really believe that um, you know, trying to be happy all the time is very foolish. Um, and that the whole point of humanity uh and love is to have equal respect for pain and pleasure. Um, it's all about truth. It's really about truth and honesty. And if you're not radically honest, you're failing your work as an artist for sure, and you're failing your work in human conversation and relations. Like uh it's just radical honesty is is where it's at. And so um there is a high, I mean, I there is I have a the friend I just toured with is a songwriter by the name of Dan Byrne, and we uh uh met and kind of fell in creative love and and and he wrote a song very early on. We started to sort of ping-ponging songs back to each other, and I had just shared something, you know, difficult with him. And he wrote a song where the chorus is, you know, like I'll probably get in trouble for saying something like this, but all that pain is beautiful. And, you know, it was a very tender song to send my way as a sort of friend friendship gesture of like, yeah, I see you're paid, but just know it's also really beautiful. And uh I carry that line with me a lot when I'm falling apart, sort of um, you know, in front of people, and and and over the years I've realized I can cry at my own shows, and and I shouldn't be trying to restrain that or hide that because it really is part of the truth. There's an awful lot of pain in the world and in my own soul and about the pain in the world, and and it has to be part of the conversation, but there's beauty, there's beauty in the camaraderie, and there's beauty in the ability to witness and speak to it. And I think I think, you know, I remember when the Me Too movement started, and it was just so awful to have all these memories come up and that and realize like every single woman I know, myself included, has been carrying these stories, and that it feels like everything's gotten worse suddenly because everyone's sharing stuff that was hidden before, but that's actually part of it healing.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 24:52

Yeah, and so I I guess I just don't shy away from uh I'm not going out of my way to like, I hope I cried in that, you know. But I just I just I just I just allow for it to happen because and I do see myself as if I'm gonna be up in front of people, I'm an example to something. I'm not like egotistically trying to be a role model, but I am in front of human beings who are watching me and listening to it. There's responsibility there. There's a hundred percent responsibility there. And if I show them that you can have grace and be, you know, tears rolling down your face. I do think it gives people permission to embrace that.

SPEAKER_01 25:36

So you've done uh over the last little while, um, you've been we talked a little bit about these workshops that help in self-expression. And I'd love to hear a little bit about well, a couple of thoughts, so we'll pack them one at a time. Uh the first thought that is coming up for me is I'd love to hear about the role that music and songwriting can play in helping people find a sense of belonging. And I know we've talked a little bit about your own journey there, but what have you seen? How can music create that opportunity?

SPEAKER_00 26:14

I I mean, speaking about magic, there is absolutely magic in that. I think I don't think, I know, and there's more and more and more scientific evidence to back me up here. Just rhythm, just being in a rhythm and a beat. It's so intrinsic to us, it's so primordial. But there is in fact scientific proof that sharing in a moment of rhythm with other people, like literally just clapping together in a room, enhances empathy, which is huge. It's profound. Um, so just uh like you know, I'm a I'm I'm the daughter of a scientist. I love science. I love I can tell when I can tell. I love when we feel an intuitive or there's things in our traditions and mythologies, or our grandmother's theory, something, and then they suddenly get backed by science. It's like this real sense of triumph for me when that happens. My grandmother swore that chocolate reduced her pain. And we all we would laugh and laugh at her theory, and then one day, you know, there's an article that it does release endorphins. It's like, listen to your dream mate. Um, so that that relationship kind of excites me. So there is, you know, the that rhythm and then the vocalization that you can do in singing. There's a million uh, you know, science studies about the therapeutics of that. And I know I came back from a tour that was three months long where I performed almost every night, and then I had a month off, and I was crying every night. And I was like, what the heck is wrong with me? Why am I crying? And then, you know, a couple weeks in I realized, well, you sang for three hours every night, and your body got used to emoting and expressing and moving that energy, and now it's looking for the closest possible thing. Singing and crying are very similar. So, yeah, so there is therapy in, and it's also the it's so primordial. It's so we vocalize as humans. Uh, there's there's pitch in the way babies cry for different things, like it's in us. So, so just on the level of music and rhythm, it's already going to help. Whatever you're holding, it's going to help. It's going to help you hold it better and share it better. Then you start bringing the words in. And my bigger focus, because those two things kind of take care of themselves. My bigger focus when I give workshops, whether they're one-on-one or group workshops, is finding your intention. What are you trying to say? What is your soul trying to say? And there is a magic I've discovered in rhyming. Interesting. Yeah. So, like, I I mean, I kind of want to like stop everything and do a PhD on it, but I also don't really want to stop, you know, practicing in the field. But that's always what I'd do. Like, oh, I think I've like had this huge insight here. There's a nugget here, yeah. There's a nugget here. It's so worth it, or almost like it's a therapy module that I mean, like, that I kind of want to go and pursue as a side career, like I like a rhyme therapist. Um there is something in creativity that is, you know, if you've if you've had a parent, you know, make you a costume out of whatever they could find in the linen closet, if you have a parent who can make a delicious meal out of whatever you happen to have in the fridge, there's creativity and resourcefulness when you're limited. And it's heightened and sharpened. Yes. And I think that rhyming does the same thing, it narrows the options down, and then it helps you fine-tune what you're trying to say. And that's the dive-in. So yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_01 29:59

I love this so much. Like I, you know, we were um, so I love like, you know, coming from Punjab, we have such rich traditions in folklore and folk songs that have been passed from like down many, many, many, many generations. So this past weekend, uh, my husband and I were driving around and this beautiful song that I had not heard in 25 ish years uh came up. And I'm loving this tradition of like creating new renditions of these really old classic folk traditions. And so I I tried to explain to my husband like what the what the lyrics mean. And my goodness, the depth that uh I was experiencing as I was trying to explain to him like there was this one little bit about heartbreak, but the expression was not just that my love is angry with me. It was described as the concept of love seems to have gotten angry with me. And I was like, Whoa, but how do you you know? And so it's like music has this beautiful way of I think deepening meaning to bring it into a bit of an abstract where you go, oh, that's also possible. And I think that creates opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 31:25

And that's also it to go back to my academic way of looking at it, that's that's the transcendence point because there's actually when we speak to each other in like quote unquote regular conversation, we're not wired to listen for metaphor in regular conversation. When we're reading the news, when we're reading a newspaper article, we're not wired to interpret it metaphorically. I'm a full-time songwriter, so I do. I pick up on the poetic in conversation and in everything, and that's why I'm a full-time songwriter. But most people aren't didn't turn that switch on because they don't need it for anything. Um, and when we do listen to songs, we know that we have permission to to interpret, right? To build their yeah, and so you spend more time when you're looking at a poem and you're looking at a metaphor. You're you you know that you're supposed to, kind of.

SPEAKER_01 32:21

So that's the magic when you're doing these workshops. It's you're you're essentially creating permission. Mission for the symbol.

SPEAKER_00 32:31

Yeah. Yeah. And you don't, I mean, sometimes I write a song and I don't see all the levels of meaning as I'm in the act of writing. But when I put the pen down and then re-read it back to myself, I go, oh, that works on a bunch of levels. There's an instinct you develop where you can kind of become able to do it without fully consciously intending to. And I think if you try too hard, it becomes heavy hand, you know. But um, there's a grace and a sort of you have to almost like not look directly at the page while you're writing to to to let the other part of your brain do the magic there. But the concept of love is angry at me is is so beautiful. It's it's so beautiful that and and it's so playful with different realms of you know reality, really.

SPEAKER_01 33:21

Like to me, when I lit when I heard that, I kept thinking when you're when you're wrestling with the concept of love, yeah, there's an invitation there to also think about whether or not you're ready to love. It's not just you know, a person that you may or may not be in love with, wrestling with a concept is am I even ready to understand the meaning of love? Am I ready to understand what it looks like?

SPEAKER_00 33:47

Am I am I open enough for the real thing to come? I mean, and and you know, by the same token, I think a lot of people enter terrible relationships because they're seeking to experience the concept of love and they're trying to fit individuals they meet into a concept of love. And it's like it's not a good fit that you're so longing for this concept. Yeah, you know, have a song where the chorus is, I'm still learning how to love. Like it's not um, and it's a really simple song that's like doesn't sound that poetic, but like if you spend time thinking, like, what does that mean? I'm still learning how to love. Like every relationship you that that fails you is like a whole bunch of lessons to to like how where where are you and where is the concept of love and how close are you to it? Um yeah, I think it's probably everybody's deepest question, really. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 34:42

And I, you know, bringing it bringing it to one of the things that you said earlier, Arit, about this idea of belonging and like permission, permission for people to to explore. Ultimately, yes, there's rhythm, yes, there's uh permission to think you know, poetic in a more metaphorical direction. And it also takes courage to go there. Right? Because some of these things we internalize so deeply. I almost feel like as as um as people who get to play with art, who get to explore these mediums, I feel such a deep privilege to be able to be able to say poetic things, you know? Yeah. So what does when you're and you've done a ton of work in that in that space of encouraging self-expression, what does it look like as music does music have that potential of bringing different people together who are typically at such serious odds with each other in society? What does that look like?

SPEAKER_00 35:50

I don't think I'd be doing this for as long as I've been doing it if that's not what was becoming more and more evident to me. I would say, you know, I've toured in so many different communities over 20 years, um, different ages, different demographics, different belief systems. And it's all about tapping into the human and making them it just it really does have the potential to melt away the the sort of categorical boundaries we have about our identities. Um I wish I could say that I've done more work that's overtly bringing really opposing communities together into the same physical space. I would absolutely love to have the opportunity to do that work because I know it will work. It will, it, it has the ability to really melt away the sort of jagged edges around people's identity. Um it's the closest I've come to that is having, you know, people on two sides of political camps, but outside of the conflict and have them in the same room and feel a sort of camaraderie of humanity. It really is it's I can't think of a better form to do it because, like, like I said, rhythm and music alone are so, so primordial to us. Like, I can't imagine um bringing diverse people into like a visual art space and uh because you're still sort of in your own individual zone and creating that. Maybe theater. I think there's probably a potential in theater. Yeah. Absolutely. Um but yeah, music just has this extra layer of human rhythm, like human rhythm and and and and vocalization and crying out into the the abyss that I think is is so pre-verbally expressive that it it just sort of clear clears the air of of all the definitions that we come in with.

SPEAKER_01 37:51

Powerful. I've had moments where one of my favorite things to do is if I'm by a um by a rocky shore where you can actually hear the waves, is to plant myself in a spot there and sing as loud as I possibly can.

SPEAKER_00 38:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:09

And and I love it because it's it almost feels like the ocean has a lot to say to me. And guess what, ocean, I have a lot to say to me. Finally, someone is listening. Someone is listening. So it's it's always uh just a really neat, neat space, neat, neat opportunity. And also I feel like okay, this is Mother Earth listening to what I have to say.

SPEAKER_00 38:33

Oh wow, and I don't think we would be musical creatures if it wasn't for the rhythms and melodies that are all around us in nature. I mean, like trees have a sound and birds have a sound and wind has a sound and waves have a sound. There's there's if you, you know, go for a walk with the intention of hearing the music that's in the in just the natural world around us, it's absolutely everywhere. I just I just don't think we would be musical creatures if that wasn't the case.

SPEAKER_01 38:59

It's true. That's a great reminder. What a great reminder. What does it look like if you actually before I go there, Sulay, you were stuck in Winnipeg during the pandemic. Yeah. Tell us about that. Of all places, how did you get stuck in Winnipeg?

SPEAKER_00 39:15

Oh, it was quite an ordeal. It was the one city I never stopped in to perform in. So for 10 or 11 years of touring full-time, I just never stopped in Winnipeg. I didn't drive, so I was performing, you know, by public transit, and which has its limitations. And finally, somebody invited me. They found my music online and they said, Oh, we have to bring you to Winnipeg. And I said, you know, if you can find me a couple of house concerts, I'll come. Um, and she did. And so I arrived by train as I, you know, that's how I would travel. I was had done a tour and I was coming back from Vancouver. And I was like, well, this time I'll get off in Winnipeg and and play in Winnipeg finally. Uh she said I could stay in her apartment for the three nights I was gonna be in town. And um, and there were two house concerts, and I got off the train, and this woman I'd never met picked me up and brought me to her home. And and then uh there was she was gonna take me to see a show on our night off, and uh she's like, Oh, the show's been canceled. And then and then I got a text from Via Rail saying the train's been cancelled. Uh and then it just all like the house of cards just went down that week. So suddenly there was uh shelter at home. And I was like, oh my God, I haven't had a home in 11 years. Like, what what do I do? Um yeah, what do I do? And I thought I can probably get like the numbers of cases were still very low, but it was sort of everything is collapsing around me. I can get on an airplane probably in the next few days and get somewhere where I know people. And I just froze because you know, I hadn't literally hadn't had a home in 11 years. I had friends all over the world uh and in different cities in Canada. And I just I was like, well, but I I've only ever gone there when I have shows. Like, I can't ask any, hey, can I come stay with you? Well, well, we are all in. It's like, well, I don't know. We nobody knew what was coming down. And and then I started to think, well, if I go there, then that, you know, like, well, I have, you know, my ex-boyfriend is like what what's gonna happen? Or then it would be, yeah, like just I have backstories in other cities. And Winnipeg was this really anomalous space where I had zero, zero history. I didn't know a soul in that city. And uh I thought maybe just stay here because it's a blank, it's a blank slate. You have no backstory here. If you go to Montreal and you can't go to any of the bars and you can't see any of your friends, it's gonna be horrible. But if you don't know anybody here, you don't even know what you're missing when everything is shut down. Yeah. Uh and and my brain is always wanting a story. And if it's gonna make a good story, like that's how I get through my hard times. If I'm if I'm going through a really challenging period, I'm like, but does it make a good movie?

SPEAKER_01 42:18

And if that's a great what a playful, what a playful positive reframe on life. This is real, this really sucks, but would it make for a good movie? I love that. I'm gonna put that on my I'm gonna put that on my screen. Does this make for a good movie? Would Netflix sign up for this?

SPEAKER_00 42:37

Yes. And I'm like, if be a good dramatic character in your own life. My first album is called Cinematic Way. And it's it's based on a song that is like I'm brokenhearted in a cinematic way. And it came from a moment where I was just like sitting on the living room floor crying because over some breakup, and I was like, zoom out and see this as a scene in a movie. Are you still the most awesome character in the world? Yep. Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_01 43:04

Helpful, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:06

That is so beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 43:07

You know, I'll I'll say this. I think clearly, you know, you hadn't met Winnipeg, and I think Winnipeg really wanted to get to know you. Wow, it it has transformed.

SPEAKER_00 43:18

I can't I um very quickly realized if you knew how to drive, you'd be able to leave. So one of my missions was learn how to drive during these lockdowns, and then you'll have the ability to get out. And so I had to become, I had to become a Manitoban officially in order to get the license to be able to leave Manitoba. So I am now officially my driver's license says Winnipeg, and I have gone back on the road and I'm still nomadic. I uh my rule was don't date anybody and don't sign a lease anywhere. So you don't get stuck here. And uh I stayed true to those two uh rule. But I have I keep coming back to Winnipeg because I really have made some very special friendships. And uh I got involved in this theater and uh it it has opened up so many interesting new paths for me that like my heart, you know, I'm proud to be a Winnipeg now. And I love it. Yeah. Oh, that's so awesome. It's fate. You know, I also very much believe in, you know, you don't know why this horrible thing is happening to you, but it's probably for a reason just waited out.

SPEAKER_01 44:30

Well, clearly, clearly the reason is a good show, a good uh a really punchy episode. So what does it look like if you imagine what is your hope for the future? And I know this is a big question. What what do you hope for the future?

SPEAKER_00 44:47

For my my personal future or for the world?

SPEAKER_01 44:50

Oh, let's hear a little bit of both. If you could braid those two together.

SPEAKER_00 44:55

I probably can because my future is and everybody's future is so dependent on how things go for the world. Like there's no real separation between those two things. I could certainly stand to use um a little more peaceful climate in the air and less divisiveness and a little more um emotional intelligence in people. Um how do I see it, or what do I hope for? Like, what's my realistic assessment of the future? What do I hope for? I hope for um a deepened commitment and a higher awareness of how I spend my time. I feel like many people I've fallen, fallen a little bit prey to scrolling. And, you know, it's like I used to be so much more intellectually engaged. And I was like, yeah, I used to have an apartment with no internet and no phone. And of course you were more, yeah, of course you read more books, and of course you did more writing and painting. So I feel like that I'm really hoping that my um productivity and my, you know, like the intention of my creative intentions aren't as self-blocked by my own bad habit. I don't know, and it's just sort of the place I get stuck is you know, people are like, well, eventually you'll settle down. I haven't, I don't, I hope I don't. I hope I don't pick a city and just stay there because the the nomadic existence has has just given me so much access to human story. And I I'd be very reluctant to give that up. And my friends are spread and fragmented all over the place. So I feel like I'd be cutting myself off. So I'm really hoping I have I can take care of my physical and mental health enough to keep to keep the lifestyle going. Um and just be responsible to that. It is a responsibility, like it's a mission, it's a life path. And it it used I used to be able to do it without paying attention to health. And that that's shifting. So I I you know, I hope I just continue to treat it with the responsibility of my mission and and like be able to really go, this is serving that, this is harming that, and and make smart choices about it.

SPEAKER_01 47:22

Oh I don't doubt that you will. There's such intentionality there that I think is going to always be make for a beautiful creative path. We can't wait to have you back in Winnipeg. And I am so excited about what we've got planned in terms of working together and bringing some incredible work to the Winnipeg community. So thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 47:49

Oh, that's my pleasure. I'm so thrilled for, and this is something that's been so true to the way I've lived. Like I have no business plan, you know, like I have no idea what I'm doing in the music industry, but I have just gotten to lead this very haphazard human path. But but the encounter, there isn't a single thing I attend that doesn't lead to the next thing. And and I didn't know that I was gonna meet you when I signed up to be part of Women WHPs in Winpeg, and and it led to this beautiful conversation. I'm so grateful for it. I'm so looking forward to uh the workshop in September. And I and it just I'm so thrilled to meet, especially women, I have to say, like I love men, and I'm just as thrilled to meet intelligent, well-spoken, well-intentioned men. But it just makes me really happy to see women uh who are embracing their articulateness and and trusting their trusting their intelligence and their voice to know that they should be using it for something. And so you are this beautiful, beautiful shining example of that. I'm so glad I met you.

SPEAKER_01 48:55

Likewise, likewise. Thank you so much for making time for us today. This was just such a beautiful, like, my heart is full of conversation.