SPEAKER_07 0:09

Welcome to Between the Threads, a podcast exploring the threads that connect us: story, memory, identity, and meaning, and how they weave the fabric of peace in our lives and communities. Between the Threads is a joint initiative between Kahani and Narratives. Kahani is a nonprofit organization that amplifies storytelling for peace building. And Narratives is an award-winning planning and design firm based in Winnipeg, Canada. Welcome to the next episode of Between the Threads. On today's episode, our guest is Donovan Taves.

SPEAKER_06 0:44

Hello.

SPEAKER_07 0:45

Hello. Donovan brings 25 years of experience in land use planning, development, and public engagement across public and private sectors. Donovan is a skilled facilitator and negotiator, having successfully guided complex multi-stakeholder projects. Recognized for his contributions to the planning profession, nationally and beyond, Donovan was recently inducted to the prestigious College of Fellows.

SPEAKER_00 1:11

Thank you. Welcome on the show. Thanks very much for having me.

SPEAKER_07 1:14

Full disclosure, this is also my husband.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

Hello.

SPEAKER_07 1:18

So if we're giggling a lot, that is that is what's going on.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

We'll try and keep it between the curves.

SPEAKER_07 1:23

We will yes, that's a good phrase. Thank you. That's a good phrase. And we will unpack later what that means. Okay. So we wanted to do something we haven't done on any other episode so far, which I'm personally very excited about. And one of the reasons for that was because we're partners. We thought that life partners. Life partners. Well, I guess in some instances, some business partners as well. So we thought, why not make this a little bit more complicated for you? Oh, great. Right? And you're up for a test. This should be good. You love games. I love games. Okay. So this game, I should have thought of a name before we started, but I didn't. So here we are. It's essentially a rapid fire question format. So you gotta answer first thing that comes to mind.

SPEAKER_00 2:11

Okay, that's dangerous territory. It is for both of us. It is dangerous territory. Okay, I'm ready.

SPEAKER_07 2:18

I'm kind of nervous for you.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Well, we know how to pause and rewind.

SPEAKER_07 2:21

Yes, yes, yes. We can edit things. Okay. So how many tabs do you currently have open on your computer?

SPEAKER_00 2:28

None.

SPEAKER_07 2:29

Whoa.

SPEAKER_00 2:30

I close it every time I leave the office, so I have none. But on a regular setup, I probably have I try and keep that minimal too. So maybe five.

SPEAKER_07 2:40

Wow, that's good. That's good discipline.

SPEAKER_00 2:41

Otherwise you can't concentrate, you know.

SPEAKER_07 2:43

Yeah, fair. What's your most planner ish habit?

SPEAKER_00 2:47

Oh, wow. Walking the streets of Winnipeg, looking around, looking up, noticing things, boring you with observations.

SPEAKER_07 2:56

I do get a lot of observations, yes.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

That's probably my most planner thing because well, these are supposed to be short and snappy. Oh, you can go well because uh I actually have not always considered myself a normal planner or a planner. I've only in maybe in the last decade thought of myself as a planner.

SPEAKER_05 3:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:14

So I'm not normal-ish by planning terms where you know you want to be super thorough and you want to do all your research, and I like to sort of fly by the seat of my pants sometimes. So fun game.

SPEAKER_07 3:26

Fun game, okay. What's one planning term you wish people would stop using?

SPEAKER_00 3:31

Oh my gosh. Uh sprawl.

SPEAKER_07 3:34

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:34

Sprawl would be that one pops to mind because um sprawl is kind of like, sorry for folks who use it, but a bit of a lazy term for suburban development.

SPEAKER_05 3:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:45

And what is suburban development? Suburban development is just our newest communities. And you know, in Winnipeg context, we would say, Oh, we love River Heights. We hate Waverly West because it's sprawl.

SPEAKER_06 3:55

Planners might say that.

SPEAKER_00 3:56

Whereas River Heights was at the edge of the city at one point. In fact, it was on the other side of the river from the city. And we actually had to cross the river, tear down a bunch of trees, and make a new community. So back then that would have been considered by these terms, sprawl.

SPEAKER_02 4:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:11

But clearly it's a great community. And it's really probably a point in time. So there is sprawl.

SPEAKER_07 4:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:17

But I don't think we have much sprawl here.

SPEAKER_07 4:19

So what would you consider an example of a sprawl?

SPEAKER_00 4:22

Well, there's other cities, and it's always dangerous to try and name other cities and blame.

SPEAKER_07 4:26

You could pick a city in a different country.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

That's true. Nudge nudge. Quite a few, uh, quite a few, probably Midwest cities. Well, lots of cities people could bring to mind. But we'll say LA or uh, you know, Midwest cities where really where there's very little physical constraint.

SPEAKER_05 4:42

Right.

SPEAKER_00 4:42

And so um, you know, cities can grow out, whereas like Vancouver, there's mountains and rivers, and you can't really go anywhere. Japan, it's an island. Lots of island places are not sprawly.

SPEAKER_04 4:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

But where there is sprawl, it I would say non-contiguous would be the big thing and single use. So if you see, you know, you're driving out of the city, you think you've left the city, but boom, another suburb pops up. It's it's clearly leapfrogged, you know, uh existing vacant land.

SPEAKER_05 5:08

Right.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

And it might just be one use, like residential only, no commercial, no recreational, maybe not even schools.

SPEAKER_07 5:14

Right.

SPEAKER_00 5:14

That would be sprawl to me.

SPEAKER_07 5:16

Okay. I'm almost imagining an exercise where if you're driving down the highway, you point out to is that sprawl or not sprawl?

SPEAKER_00 5:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 5:26

That's a good road game.

SPEAKER_00 5:27

Yeah. Yeah. And I think any anytime you've passed vacant land, yeah, and then you arrive at land that's not vacant shortly thereafter, you'd say it's sprawl. It's it's leapfrogged, it's not contiguous.

SPEAKER_05 5:38

Right.

SPEAKER_00 5:38

And and one last thing is trees. I think a lot of people, especially you're not in the planting world and even planners, um, when they see no trees or they see really young trees, as the as is the case in every new community, the trees are young, the boulevard trees, and it feels vacant. And if you see pictures of river heights when it was first built, you would you would, and you didn't know it was river heights, you would say you would say, Oh, that's terrible.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_00 6:04

It's just tiki-tacky homes, no trees, straight grid, and you'd say it's awful. But you put trees on that, um, in that image, and or you walk in the sidewalk and suddenly it's gorgeous. And I think people really underestimate the power of a of a tree canopy in particular.

SPEAKER_07 6:20

Yeah. Okay, cool. So we should stop using the term sprawl or use it, use it with care. Yeah, with some thought. Yeah, with some thought. I love it. On a scale of one to ten, how excited do you get about a well-designed roundabout?

SPEAKER_00 6:35

These you've picked these questions knowing these are very leading questions. Yeah, they're very, very leading questions. A good roundabout is is a nice, uh, a great feature.

SPEAKER_07 6:45

I mean, if you anyone's had the Also a question you can only ask a planner.

SPEAKER_00 6:49

Well, yeah, I should give a shout out to Bob Krelko, one of one of my on my list of favorite engineers who uh advocated for a long time we should be doing roundabouts in Winnipeg or in Manitoba. And it was uh he was saying that before it became more popular than it is now.

SPEAKER_05 7:04

Right.

SPEAKER_00 7:05

But you know, and they're all over the Europe, they're all over the world. And in Winnipeg, we in Manitoba, we kind of said, well, people won't know what to do and we don't know how to drive and so forth. And that might have been a little true, but not really.

SPEAKER_07 7:17

Yeah. Um, so I I I've seen people navigate roundabouts very poorly. Uh that's true. And as someone who grew up with a lot of roundabouts, it drives meaning.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

Yeah, you wonder why, like, why, right?

SPEAKER_07 7:26

Wow, what is so good?

unknown 7:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:28

But I mean, they are intuitive. You those people, even those ones who are like crawling through, they're not sure, they do end up going the right way more most times. They're just like, what is this?

SPEAKER_03 7:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

But um, there's so many places if you come to a T intersection and it's big lineups, uh, like four-way stops, say, in a in some suburban communities, even where it's obvious, oh, well, put a roundabout here because roundabouts almost never back up and they're extremely safe.

unknown 7:52

Right.

SPEAKER_00 7:52

They virtually on the highway, in the highway system use, they virtually eliminate fatalities and just because you gotta slow down and speed kills.

SPEAKER_07 8:00

Right. Hmm, cool. So, did you give me a number?

SPEAKER_00 8:03

Uh no, what was the question?

SPEAKER_07 8:05

On a scale of one to ten, how excited do you get?

SPEAKER_00 8:07

Well, you judge for yourself based on how I had to stop short on answering that. But I let's say an eight. I'll give it an eight. Yeah, I'll give you the two five, sure.

SPEAKER_07 8:17

Okay. What is your most controversial planning opinion?

SPEAKER_00 8:23

Uh planning hot take. Well, that sprawl one's pretty controversial. The other one probably has to do with engagement.

SPEAKER_07 8:29

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:30

And um, folks who get involved in engagement planners are not planners, and if it's their sole thing, I've I've I get the sense that a lot of them feel like you must engage on everything, and and people should always have a say, so to speak, in in the matter. They they should be given decision-making authority. And it's a pretty controversial opinion as someone who does engagement work at all levels, if you will, uh intense or just high level, uh, that you know, I think there are some things we don't we shouldn't engage on, or we should change what what we're engaging, like how we're engaging and uh really assess what is the role uh of people to engage in.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:12

So, like for example, uh, do you remember the Portage in Maine?

SPEAKER_05 9:17

I do.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

Uh question. And the question at the time was, you know, Portage and Maine, famous intersection in Winnipeg, pretty busy. There's there's a couple that are busier, but it's it's one of the busiest. And uh we have barricades, had barricades around Portage and Maine, so pedestrians could not cross Portage and Maine. They had to be diverted underground, and there's there's shops down there and so forth, and deals with the four big owners at the corners. And so we have we had this since I was seven.

unknown 9:46

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 9:47

So that's a lot of years. It's pushing half a century, uh, but since the seven, since the seventies, let's say. And uh we debated and debated should this should it be opened? And there was a big lobby that said no, it shouldn't. The the mayor at the time um thought that it would be a good idea to put that question to a referendum.

SPEAKER_05 10:08

Right.

SPEAKER_00 10:08

And we could get onto that decision another day. But the idea that we would ask the entire city, should people be allowed to cross this intersection was bizarre to me. Yeah. Why would you consult people uh broadly whether that should be the case? Did we ask that question of any other intersection in the city? We would of course we didn't. Yep. Why did we ask it here? Of course, it it in my view, it should have been opened. And I mean, for those who've crossed it either by car or you know, by foot now, I think the question the answer's obvious. It's it's fine. And it's it's actually much better than fine. It's great. And and on the safety and concern side, it turned out to be fine. Right. And really a more uh civil, humane uh way to interact with our best intersection in the prairies.

SPEAKER_07 10:55

So not everything, and I'm trying not to simplify it because there's so much nuance here, not everything is what we engage on. We we need to be mindful of the purpose of that engagement.

SPEAKER_00 11:08

Yeah, thanks for bringing it back. I I I think there are things that we've already engaged upon.

SPEAKER_03 11:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:14

And there's a lot of things like our political system is designed to have decision makers who are elected to make decisions for us. And, you know, we we do need visioning. We as a community, say in Winnipeg, we do need to know where we're going. We do need to weigh in on like engagement at that visionary level, I think is really, really important. And as we get more detailed, it it moves towards engaging from what would you like to see to how might you be impacted? That's the kind of engagement I love to be involved in is you know, we're building a bridge. We know we need to build the bridge, we don't need a visioning session about whether there should be a bridge there. It's already occurred or the bridge is already existing. But the engagement can be much more meaningful by sitting down with someone who has a house by that bridge that you might need to expropriate that house or you might need to change their access, and there's some real impact, yeah, even though it's good for the general public. So we should definitely be engaging at that level. And the irony there is that that person really does not have authority. So, in that traditional view of you know, that the best engagement is where people have decision-making control, that's not the case there. Yeah, because the person truly doesn't have decision-making control, and it would be fake to ask them questions where they have decision-making control, yet it's so critical that you work with them respectfully, yeah, kindly, and in a time, respectful way and um, you know, a meaningful way. And there's advocates of engagement that say that's not meaningful because they don't have any decision-making control. That's what I would change.

SPEAKER_07 12:43

Yeah, okay. There's a lot of nuance there, and I I I appreciate that. So, okay, we're moving on to a different question here.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

Yeah, these weren't uh as rapid fire as you said.

SPEAKER_07 12:53

Yeah, clearly. Yeah. I mean, what I'm I'm kidding myself by thinking that these are rapid fire as someone who has sat for long hours talking about these issues. Sorry. No, this is good. So this next question is what would you which would you rather attend? A council meeting or a three-hour wedding reception?

SPEAKER_00 13:14

Oh, that's a cruel, cruel question.

SPEAKER_07 13:17

Well, we have to- You can't say it depends. What it depends.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

It totally depends.

SPEAKER_07 13:22

Let's hear it.

SPEAKER_00 13:23

Well, like, you know, is is the wedding someone I know and care about?

SPEAKER_07 13:27

Uh like you know, sometimes you gotta go to weddings at Are you saying that because you know some family members are gonna be listening to this?

SPEAKER_00 13:33

No, there's nobody I have in mind here. This is a fictional scenario.

SPEAKER_07 13:38

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:39

Um, yeah, so you know, who's there? And the same would be true about a council. Oh, yeah, like what's it about and who are the players?

SPEAKER_05 13:46

Right.

SPEAKER_00 13:46

But I mean, council meetings can be tedious because um, you know, they require lots of dialogue, and sometimes the dialogue just isn't, you know, on topic or it's in minutiae when it should be much higher than that.

SPEAKER_05 14:01

Right.

SPEAKER_00 14:01

And not all the parties think at the same level.

SPEAKER_05 14:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:04

So, you know, I think I'd rather go to that's tough. That's tough. A council meeting?

SPEAKER_07 14:12

Really?

SPEAKER_00 14:13

Unless it was someone food is amazing. Oh, the food. Yeah, that's true. The food, the quote unquote air quotes here, dancing.

SPEAKER_07 14:22

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:24

You know, me and dancing.

SPEAKER_07 14:25

Yeah.

unknown 14:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 14:28

That's cool.

SPEAKER_00 14:29

Okay, wedding. I'll rather go to that.

SPEAKER_07 14:31

Okay, that's great. You know, and part of the reason why I had this question was also to reflect on we often think if it's a council meeting, we think, you know, there's a certain given format for that meeting. And there's the format piece that's really important, and then there's the players in the room. And as someone who's facilitated a lot of lot of very complex projects and conversations, that becomes a really important part of the consideration, right? So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:59

Yeah, who's chairing it is probably the biggest question. Sure. Who's chairing that meeting?

unknown 15:03

Right.

SPEAKER_00 15:03

A council meeting or other public meeting in a a a chair who's not experienced or not good at their job make things really, really tough for everybody.

SPEAKER_07 15:12

Right. Hmm. Okay. How many maps are too many maps?

SPEAKER_00 15:16

Never, never too many. There are not enough maps in this world.

SPEAKER_07 15:21

I do think there's a limit.

SPEAKER_00 15:22

I don't think there's a limit. No. I think a person should be able to have as many maps in their collection as well.

SPEAKER_07 15:29

How many maps is too many maps in your home?

SPEAKER_00 15:33

Oh, well, how much wall space is available? Yes, I have maps. Uh lots of maps.

SPEAKER_07 15:39

I think anyone who comes to our place can tell which office is mine.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

Yeah. Well, and you have been gracious about putting maps outside of my own home office and in the main area of living.

SPEAKER_07 15:51

To be fair, we also you have maps and I have plants.

SPEAKER_00 15:55

Uh yeah, you have 35 plants.

SPEAKER_07 15:59

You counted them?

SPEAKER_00 16:00

I did. I have never counted them. Well, last time you were away and I was asked to water the plants.

SPEAKER_07 16:06

I can't believe you put a number on my map. My plants will never hear this episode. So there's no such thing as too many maps, and there's no such thing as too many plants.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

Can we Yeah, plants are wonderful. Okay.

SPEAKER_07 16:17

Yeah, we can agree on that.

SPEAKER_00 16:18

I love your plants too.

SPEAKER_07 16:20

I don't mind your maps either. Thanks. It's good. Okay, between you and I, who apologizes first after an argument?

SPEAKER_00 16:30

Wow. We went we're going to be able to do that. We're going in, we're going in, yeah. Who apologizes first? You don't apologize often.

SPEAKER_07 16:39

That is fair.

SPEAKER_00 16:40

And I don't apologize quickly. So me. I apologize first.

SPEAKER_07 16:47

Okay, great.

SPEAKER_00 16:48

You know, you want to weigh in on that?

SPEAKER_07 16:50

I don't.

SPEAKER_00 16:51

I'm just gonna skip over.

SPEAKER_07 16:52

I know. No, that's very accurate. And I'm appreciating also how important process is.

SPEAKER_00 16:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 17:00

It's the conversation that becomes really important because I would argue my reasons for not apologizing lie in the process.

SPEAKER_00 17:09

Well, I think, and maybe I've I'm not sure if I learned it from you, but it's important not to apologize too quickly. This is a good uh piece for outside this relationship, like in in planning.

SPEAKER_07 17:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 17:20

Right? And in all things planning, you know, you can't apologize too quick because it it might suggest a couple things. One would be that you haven't thought about it and you like it's too quick.

SPEAKER_03 17:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:32

The person who's giving the apology hasn't really thought through you know what's behind it. And so I think uh maybe they just want to get out of the situation.

SPEAKER_07 17:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

And that that's feels disingenuous.

SPEAKER_07 17:43

Yeah. And I actually I wrote I wrote this piece recently about apologies. And um it's been really interesting hearing people's uh comments and responses to that piece. Like in Canada, we actually have Apology Act because we say sorry so much. It's part of being Canadian. And I often find it very amusing as soon as I get on the plane and then move anywhere outside of Canada, the what we consider politeness declines, what we consider like normal how we speak to each other, and usually that includes a lot of I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 18:21

Right.

SPEAKER_07 18:22

And so I think part of my piece about sorry is also are you apologizing when you say I'm sorry, or is there are you just saying I'm sorry? Yeah, yeah. So it the chance to I think unpack that goes goes a long way.

SPEAKER_00 18:37

Yeah, and it it's funny, uh, you know, again, situational situations. So you're you bump into someone, of course, I'm sorry, or you know, in an elevator, two people exiting, and one uh socially makes just a move too soon. And they're like, oh sorry.

SPEAKER_03 18:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:54

And and I actually like that. I I think that I I like that it's just deferential and it just says, you know, we're we're in this together and uh let's all work together. But I'm curious, like what situations do you think we apologize too much?

SPEAKER_07 19:09

To me, that would be too much. Ah yeah, so I would not I would never I would never say sorry if uh or maybe I do, but I don't want to. Yeah, there's the uh it's a big topic of like trying to fit in. But I wouldn't say I'm sorry if we both headed to the elevator door at the same time. Like what would you do?

SPEAKER_00 19:32

Just say nothing.

SPEAKER_07 19:33

I would maybe just laugh, smile, like you know, it's like whoops, but yeah, yeah, like there was no hurt that happened there. There was no like, ooh, big deal, I need to apologize here.

SPEAKER_00 19:45

Maybe it's like in the category, like when someone you don't know says, Oh, thank you, dear, or you know, it doesn't happen as well.

SPEAKER_07 19:53

Like more colloquial.

SPEAKER_00 19:54

Yeah, colloquial. It's just it's just a thing like oops.

SPEAKER_07 19:57

Right. Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. Like I I'm thinking of another instance where it always makes me pause is being at a grocery store and someone just goes by you.

SPEAKER_00 20:12

Oh, and then they say sorry. For passing you.

SPEAKER_07 20:15

For passing you.

SPEAKER_00 20:17

That's fair.

SPEAKER_07 20:18

I think yeah, and I always turn around and assess my surroundings to see what prompted the need to.

SPEAKER_00 20:27

Isn't that isn't the thing to say there, like if you need to say, excuse me, yeah. Yeah. Oh, excuse me.

SPEAKER_07 20:31

I th I think that's what's happened is sorry, has been Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:35

Excuse me, is been it's just overused. Nobody's thinking about the word anymore.

SPEAKER_07 20:40

Okay, you do have strong opinions about sprawl sprawl. I like that. That's a trigger word. Yeah, yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 20:47

How are we doing on your rapid fire mode?

SPEAKER_07 20:49

We're we're clearly not in a rapid fire mode here, but I I love these questions. So when you think of one thing that you could ban from cities forever, what would that be?

SPEAKER_00 21:02

Littering.

SPEAKER_07 21:03

Whoa.

SPEAKER_00 21:04

Okay, that was very clear. It's just yeah. Uh we have too much litter.

SPEAKER_03 21:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:10

And it boggles me about litter. I don't understand how like how people could litter. And we're having a current problem in Winnipeg. The people are unfortunately accessing the garbage bins looking for stuff and and then it gets windy, especially at Portage and Maine. Yeah. Windy. So, you know, litter would be it's such a basic thing.

SPEAKER_04 21:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:29

And it sounds like too simple for a big city issue, but I think it's fundamentally important because you think of I don't know anyone who doesn't notice that streets are dirty and they're littery. And I wonder what the that how that plays on the psyche of your average person. Sure. If there is an average person, but your your typical commuter, let's say, they look out the window, whether you're on foot or car and you see litter.

SPEAKER_03 21:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:53

And what's it saying? You know, it's to me it says but we don't care about our place. And um yeah, I remember going From I well recently traveled from Barcelona to Lisbon. Both close to each other, one in Portugal, one in Spain. And uh landed in Lisbon, super excited. And the very first thing I noticed coming from having come from Barcelona was that the streets, there were litter on the streets.

SPEAKER_07 22:18

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 22:19

And my very first thought, I guess it's a plenary thing, but I wonder if it is, uh, is oh, they don't they're not they don't want to take care of the easiest thing. Wonder what it says about the rest.

SPEAKER_01 22:30

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 22:31

Yeah, like is are things being cared for here if we can't even pick up the litter?

SPEAKER_07 22:36

Wow, that's very interesting. And a great segue. Like a one of the next questions I was gonna ask you was what do you what is the first thing you notice when you go into a new city as a planner? What is the first thing you notice?

SPEAKER_00 22:50

Systems. I know that would be the big thing. They're systems. How how easy is it for me to get from one place to the other?

SPEAKER_04 22:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

You know, if I go to a city and uh I'm on my own or we're traveling and whatnot, it's like, well, how easy did they make it for for me?

SPEAKER_04 23:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

Um, i.e. for people to go from one place to the next.

SPEAKER_05 23:09

Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

And to me, that's another version of care. It's like you, okay, the city recognizes that we all need to go places and it should be comfortable, ideally. The next would be cleanliness.

SPEAKER_07 23:19

Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

The third would be design.

SPEAKER_07 23:21

Yeah. And what what comes to mind when you think of design?

SPEAKER_00 23:24

Well, I love Vancouver, one of my favorite cities, because I I feel like they've really emphasized that design is important and it does tie to that litter thing, which is the human experience. Like how do you feel? Not just what do you think and the logistics of getting from A to B, but how do those things make you feel?

SPEAKER_05 23:44

Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:45

And the psyche of a city to me is critical when when there's a high level of design, you might not notice it or you might not be conversant in the design, but you definitely can feel that a place is special. That a building is special, that a sidewalk, the pavers in a sidewalk, the landscaping beside the sidewalk, uh how you know, has there been attention to detail and does it feel good?

SPEAKER_05 24:10

Right.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

And it it says something about the quality of the place and and the care.

SPEAKER_07 24:14

Yeah. In this um in this season, we've been reflecting a lot on how cities tell their stories. And when I hear you talk about the first uh few things that you think about when you walk into a city, how do you pick or how does it come to your awareness who who lives in the city, who belongs in the city? How does a city tell its story?

SPEAKER_00 24:41

I don't know how a city tells its story of who's there, other than by you walking around and seeing who's there. And that in itself isn't sufficient. Like I'm thinking as a visitor right now. Yeah. Right? Because if if you go to a city as a visitor and you're curious about who, strangely, the the thing you'd see is how people are dressed, because that's on the outside. You could see the tone of their skin.

SPEAKER_01 25:07

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 25:08

Which, you know, like that or not, I suppose, you or appreciate it or not. Uh it's an indicator.

SPEAKER_01 25:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:15

And so right away, those two things would give you a sense of diversity.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 25:20

And, you know, the city would be telling a story of diversity by virtue of who you see. But to get a deeper look, you'd have to stay in that city for some time. You'd have to start to know the people in that city. You'd have to engage in conversations far enough beyond sorry in the elevator.

SPEAKER_02 25:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

Um, to, you know, to get a feel for how how people are feeling in the city and who are they and what are they representing.

SPEAKER_04 25:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:46

So the next would be you you could get a feel for who, of course, by the architecture. Sure. If you knew anything about architecture, and I only have a very basic working knowledge as a planner, not an architect, but different forms of architecture that would show up from different um geographies historically, or just geograph just influences in the architecture of the way you get a Capola or some other architectural feature that's not expected, say in Western Canada, and start to pop up. Maybe it's a gurdwara that we didn't have gurdwaras, you know, 50 years ago. Right. And you see one, okay, well, it's uh saying something about who's here, you know. And so not just religious uh buildings, but all all kinds of architectural influences. Yeah. And then it'd be a subtlety.

SPEAKER_07 26:30

Yeah. And I think it's those subtleties that you may see, and then they become a little bit more obvious if they become a part of the fabric of the city. I'm thinking of signage, I'm thinking of the sounds we hear, like we often reflect on the story of you playing Punjabby song when you proposed.

SPEAKER_00 26:50

Yes, at Port de Jamine.

SPEAKER_07 26:52

Yeah, Port de Germain. And the one of the moments of, I mean, there were so many beautiful moments in that, but one of the moments that has always come up for me when I reflect on how a city tells a story is how shocked I was that my favorite song, my favorite Punjabi song was playing, because I'd never heard it played publicly without me playing it.

SPEAKER_00 27:15

And there I was dragging you into the square 30 below. I'm like, look at the video screen. You know, you're but the song, the song, I know the song.

SPEAKER_07 27:23

Right. So to me, that is also such an important way. It's the sounds that a city tells, right?

SPEAKER_00 27:35

That always cracks her up. A voice crack. It's not funny, hey.

SPEAKER_06 27:41

So funny.

SPEAKER_00 27:43

Um so the songs, that's another really good one.

SPEAKER_06 27:48

I gotta I gotta compose myself.

SPEAKER_00 27:51

I think it's because I went. You getting this?

SPEAKER_07 27:58

I'll get it together.

SPEAKER_00 27:59

I don't think you will.

SPEAKER_07 28:02

It's the dumbest thing. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:04

Voice cracks are falling, people falling.

SPEAKER_07 28:07

Slow falls in particular.

SPEAKER_00 28:09

I have a thought.

SPEAKER_07 28:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

Well, it's songs, yeah. But also you mentioned signs.

SPEAKER_02 28:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

And signs are it's something that cities can do, and Winnipeg's been doing it, you know, now for a little bit, like for instance, the renaming of Bishop Grandon Boulevard to Abenojimikina, and to see the sign and in a way, maybe for some people to have to read that sign, yeah, unfortunately, like the you know, perhaps non-voluntary education.

SPEAKER_05 28:39

Right.

SPEAKER_00 28:40

But to to a sign that has uh wording that's from a different language than English or French, yeah, yeah, that it for forces us, if you will, or gives us the opportunity would be the nice way to say that to um uh understand and acknowledge that hey, it's like there's all of us here.

SPEAKER_07 28:58

Yeah. Yeah, I like that a lot. And you know, I'm also thinking of uh public art. And we've had we've had a few guests uh this season who are mural artists.

SPEAKER_05 29:12

Right.

SPEAKER_07 29:12

And public art is also a really neat way to show who lives in the city. Who are the characters in that art? Is it are we just showing people? Are we just showing people of a certain background? Are we showing people from many backgrounds? Are we also showing nature? Are we also showing people and nature coming together? Like all of those are such beautiful, powerful cues for people to know what a city is about. And then I'm ref also reflecting on, you know, the when I every time we go back home, I love the chaos. I love that everything is not organized. Right. Yeah, that's sort of the only way I can think of it. And organized chaos, man. Organized chaos. And to me, that is very beautiful, contrasted with a city where everything is like perfectly in order and systems and so on. So to me, that also says a lot about people and how people and systems work in that city, yeah, if you will. And I love that you talked a little bit about that with with litter and care. So if there's litter everywhere, do we actually care about each other? Do we actually care about our city?

SPEAKER_00 30:24

Yeah, and that and I mean that's that's my filter, right? Like that's what I like. I like things to be clean and tidy and and designed and so forth. But I mean, I love that you raised back home. Like we go and travel back home, and of course you and I have talked about it. But um anyone who's traveled to a place like Pakistan or India or anywhere, you're p pick another place, even uh even Eastern Europe or elsewhere, where things maybe don't they don't seem orderly from my point of view, say from a Western point of view, it actually seems like chaos, and you kind of use the word. But I remember, you know, maybe after the second or third trip or fourth, I don't know, just saying, no, this is orderly. Like there is an order here. And I'm I'm picturing particularly driving on the roads, and uh, if people can imagine, like there's no lines or the lines are irrelevant. So you've got five people on a motorcycle and you've got a camel, a couple of goats, a couple of goats for sure. You got a big small car, whatever, and everyone's you're in the wrong side, quote unquote wrong side, and it is like it's the wrong side there too. But everybody's moving, it's like this system, and you don't see very many accidents, I'm sure there are, yeah, but there's a system, yeah. It's just not the system that I had in mind, right? So it feels like chaos.

SPEAKER_01 31:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:47

But even there I think about litter, and I'm like, oh, you know what?

SPEAKER_01 31:50

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

We could commodify litter.

SPEAKER_01 31:52

Right.

SPEAKER_00 31:53

Right.

SPEAKER_01 31:53

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 31:54

It might be uh anyway. It's yeah, it's uh questions of order and organization and what what that looks like to different people.

SPEAKER_07 32:00

Yeah, and different ways of being, and how when we have cities that have people from many walks of life, then the story of that city becomes more nuanced. And so the ways in which we tell that story also becomes richer over time.

SPEAKER_00 32:16

Yeah. Right? A good way to put it.

SPEAKER_07 32:18

Um, okay. I would like to go way back.

SPEAKER_06 32:23

Uh oh.

SPEAKER_07 32:23

So we've talked, we've touched a lot on the different aspects of planning that you've been involved in um in creative ways. What precipitated the journey into planning? Take us back in time. Go back as far as you want.

SPEAKER_00 32:39

Sure. Well, as as a as a really young guy, like maybe I don't know, grade two.

SPEAKER_07 32:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 32:46

Yeah, I had a lot of questions. Okay. I wanted to know.

SPEAKER_07 32:48

Platinum blonde hair.

SPEAKER_00 32:50

Platinum, yes, I had hair firstly. It's good to and then it was platinum blonde. All three, my my brother, my sister, and I all had platinum blonde hair, good little Mennonites. And uh, I being the youngest, I got to, you know, observe what was going on around me. Sort of a youngest thing. It's like you get to be the one who looks and watches about what's going on around you with very little control.

SPEAKER_05 33:13

Right.

SPEAKER_00 33:14

At any rate, I seeing all these things, I wondered how like, how does this work? Like, why is a tree green? Like, why can cars go fast? Or yeah, how did they how did they make that play structure so tall? And uh, so many questions that you know I drove my parents nuts.

unknown 33:31

Right.

SPEAKER_00 33:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 33:32

There's an album with your photos with the words why.

SPEAKER_00 33:36

Yeah. It looks kind of wrong. Like it looks like why.

SPEAKER_07 33:40

It's like here's the beautiful journey of our firstborn, our second born with the thirdborn, the opening chapter says why.

SPEAKER_00 33:47

Yes, my mom was misunderstood. Yeah, but um, I asked why and I drove them. That's because it would be layered as well. It's like, okay, so why is a tree green? Well, because the leaves are green. Well, why are the leaves green? Oh, and then it got a little foggier after that. And finally they got so frustrated that they they ended up going to the bookstore and they bought me like a thick, like telephone book sized book, the big book of why. And uh it answered all sorts of amazing questions. So I'm curious. And uh, you know, I think that just started extrapolating into cities and the land. Uh you know, I love being on the land in cities and outside of cities. And then um, you know, that curiosity led me to university where I wasn't sure I did an undergraduate degree in geography, and that's where I fell in love with maps. Of course. Or at least I found found a good place to learn more about maps. And then I wanted to study further, so I just looked in the university calendar, U of M calendar, paper at the time.

SPEAKER_07 34:51

Right.

SPEAKER_00 34:52

No online, because it was before that time.

SPEAKER_07 34:54

I don't think they have paper anymore.

SPEAKER_00 34:55

I don't think they do. I I think they don't.

SPEAKER_07 34:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:58

So I flipped through to the back and just went through the list.

SPEAKER_07 35:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 35:01

A to Z, architecture to Zoologist. And along the way I hit city planning. And I'm like, oh, what is this?

SPEAKER_05 35:09

Right.

SPEAKER_00 35:10

And uh yeah, it caught caught my eye as a some way I could apply all those things I loved. And you can't define a city, you can't figure out a city very well. And so it it there's uh you know limitless room for curiosity in city planning.

SPEAKER_07 35:24

I love that curiosity was just so fun center because I often talk about how important it is for planners to be curious and curious not just about how things function and also be curious about the people that we work with. Is we're often bringing so many different ways of being together. And when we're talking about building communities, building neighborhoods or whatever, it's not just like our ideas of planning, it's also taking them taking a beat to reflect on different people and their what they bring together.

SPEAKER_00 36:02

Definitely, yeah. Yeah, and I I love that like in in the various kinds of planning, and you and I do different kinds of planning with lots of overlap as well. But the one significant area of overlap I'll suggest in all planning is people. And, you know, you asked about engagement, for example, and I kind of gave the answer of less involvement in some cases, but yeah, but not really, because it all involves people. And you know, if if the ideas and the stories of the people are aren't finding a home in a city, then then that city's failing. Yeah, and there's so many ways of knowing and feeling and experiencing that you know, all of our efforts need to be designed to you know, not just accommodate, but like like weave in.

SPEAKER_05 36:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:48

Weave in like like the title of your show.

SPEAKER_07 36:51

Exactly. Look at that, eh? Look at that. Well done, well done. Thanks. With the when I think about how we bring different ways of ways of being together through planning, um, one of the thoughts that's been floating in my head is how do we plan for belonging in better ways? And I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

SPEAKER_00 37:13

Well, I'd almost like to hear your thoughts on that. For belonging, I feel like you know, you have a richer experience in belonging. You know, you you've had to move here to and figure out how to belong. For me, I grew up here, I've always felt like I belonged.

SPEAKER_04 37:29

Right.

SPEAKER_00 37:30

So I have a hard time gaining perspective on belonging because I have the luxury of having feeling like I have it.

SPEAKER_04 37:37

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:38

Um, and I I wonder too, it's uh whether people in my position who've grown up here, I don't mean that exclusionary, just factually, you know, whether their sense of belonging is threatened at times by others w wanting to belong.

SPEAKER_01 37:54

Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_00 37:56

Yeah, and here everybody just wants to belong.

SPEAKER_01 37:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 38:00

Um that's a that's a that's a really good question. Yeah. And I'm um you know, one of the thoughts that comes up for me as I think about belonging with that frame is it depends on what uh mindset you grew up with. So if you if you uh come from a place of scarcity where if one person has more of something that means there's less for others, then yeah, belonging becomes that limited pie. And if someone else takes a bigger chunk of the pie, then there's not much left for me.

SPEAKER_00 38:37

But if you know whether they're taking that slice or not, the the fear of it becomes the fear of it becomes really important, right?

SPEAKER_07 38:42

And if you if you start thinking about belonging as this like beautiful unlimited pie, and ideally a flavor you love.

SPEAKER_00 38:51

Pumpkin? What is your favorite pie, by the way?

SPEAKER_07 38:54

I would go with dark chocolate in anything. I don't think there's a dark chocolate pie. Yeah, is there?

SPEAKER_00 39:00

Yeah, I think so. Like a fudge pie or something. I don't know.

SPEAKER_07 39:04

We'll have to explore that. Chocolate pie. Chocolate pie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's possible. Add some nuts on there.

SPEAKER_00 39:10

That may be.

SPEAKER_07 39:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:11

Ice cream.

SPEAKER_07 39:11

Now I'm distracted and all I'm thinking of is pie.

SPEAKER_00 39:14

But belonging.

SPEAKER_07 39:15

Belonging, yes, thank you. So if we thought of belonging as this like beautiful, limitless, dark chocolate pie with whipped cream and nuts on it, and there is it doesn't matter how big a slice someone else takes, there's gonna be more. I think that shifts the mindset from scarcity to abundance.

SPEAKER_00 39:35

That's good.

SPEAKER_07 39:36

And, you know, we often wrestle with those ideas in the context of love, of attention, of wanting to be seen. So does my want to be seen take away from someone else's need to be seen? I think in a city where we're all trying to belong, that fear worries me that if someone if there's more belonging for one group, that there's less for less for the other.

SPEAKER_00 40:01

Yeah, and and that that's where I was jumping in is is the fear factor.

SPEAKER_05 40:06

Right.

SPEAKER_00 40:06

Right. That like if there is abundance, and I think there is abundance, then it's the fear.

SPEAKER_04 40:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:13

And you know, might be worth asking where where's that fear come from? What what is the person who's fearing that? Yeah, fearing they're going to lose. And can there be a conversation about that, you know, what they feel they might lose?

SPEAKER_04 40:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:24

Or what they feel they're losing? Is it identity? You know, is it is it something that deep, or is it actually like something shallow, like resources? Important, of course. Sure. But do they like is there not gonna be enough food for us as the kids? Yeah, it's not gonna be enough gas. Sure. You know, probably not in all those cases.

SPEAKER_07 40:40

So what is the what is the what is the fear? Yeah. How do you wrestle with that? Like, and I'm one wondering how that comes up in the in some of the projects that you've been involved in. Um, change is always difficult for people.

SPEAKER_06 40:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 40:53

And we've spent a lot of time talking about change and change management and change psychology. Is yeah, how much of this is about people just fearing change as opposed to I I think all of it.

SPEAKER_00 41:06

Really? Not to be extreme, but I think I'll leave some room. Like 95% of this is about change. And like my observation uh, and not being a psychiatrist or psychologist or in that field, but you know, planning has a lot of that armchair psychology for sure, is you know, people don't like some people like change. I I love I like change. I love changing, doing different things and so forth. But it's change you can't control or change you did not expect. Those are it seems like across the board with humans, things we didn't expect, change we didn't expect is is really not cool. We don't like it.

SPEAKER_04 41:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:48

Um, we can put be so put off by it as to not even realize that what's going on here is that it's just change.

SPEAKER_05 41:54

Right.

SPEAKER_00 41:55

So when it comes to, you know, seeing new things or belonging, I guess was the topic. But people from elsewhere come coming, immigrating to Canada like like everyone other than our our uh indigenous brothers and sisters, that um it's like the fear of someone who has had a family here for say a hundred years, which isn't very long, yeah, and then uh feeling like they're gonna lose their identity as you know, like quote unquote real, like original Canadians or something like that.

SPEAKER_05 42:28

Right.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

And I think that fear is just a normal reaction. And if I bring it back to the infrastructure engagement that we do, like I gave the example of a bridge, and it's the same thing as if people don't know and don't know why something is changing and didn't expect it to change, it's really challenging for them. But the nice part is with good process and with a good dialogue and which it which requires time, yeah, people can understand, firstly, and then accept. Secondly, and I think that that's that lesson for the bridge could apply to people as well. Yeah with understanding and time. And there's only one way to get understanding, which is like dialogue.

SPEAKER_07 43:14

Through conversation. Yeah. Incredible. If you were elected mayor tomorrow, oh we'll we'll we'll message our mayor.

SPEAKER_00 43:25

Okay, yeah, because there you can't have a second bald white guy with glasses.

SPEAKER_07 43:31

We're sending this clip to our mayor, yes. If you were elected mayor tomorrow, what's your first executive decision?

SPEAKER_00 43:40

Well, let's first say that you know the mayor has retired, uh, didn't want to go go you know be elected.

SPEAKER_07 43:46

I wouldn't I don't think the mayor would be worried.

SPEAKER_00 43:48

No, he's he's sitting, he's doing a great job. Yeah. Uh what's the first change I would make?

SPEAKER_07 43:52

Yeah, what's the first change you make?

SPEAKER_00 43:53

Well, you know I would pick up the litter.

SPEAKER_07 43:56

I gather that, yes.

SPEAKER_00 43:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 43:58

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 43:58

I know it's super small, but I also think it's a great place to start. Yeah. And then I would make a plan for being a planner.

SPEAKER_07 44:09

Said like a planner.

SPEAKER_00 44:10

Yeah. I would make a plan to be even more proactive. Where answer the question where this time, the other W. You know, where we want to focus our attentions.

SPEAKER_03 44:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:22

Vis-a-vis like related to communities and density and housing. We're in great need of housing.

SPEAKER_04 44:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:29

But we need to link that in a far more explicit way to our infrastructure. Okay, we want homes here, place X. Do we have infrastructure we need in place X?

SPEAKER_05 44:40

Right.

SPEAKER_00 44:40

So we have an infrastructure plan and we have a housing plan, but they they're not married well enough.

SPEAKER_05 44:46

We're not talking to each other.

SPEAKER_00 44:47

Everyone's doing a great job, but that those plans need to be married.

SPEAKER_05 44:51

Right.

SPEAKER_00 44:52

And they're not currently married. That's that's the very first thing I would do.

SPEAKER_07 44:55

You were recently inducted to the College of Fellows, which is the highest honor for a professional planner in Canada. Tell us about that.

SPEAKER_00 45:05

Yeah. Well, a very, very pleasant surprise and truly an honor. I I got the package of what people wrote in order to go through that process. Uh, you know, as someone who's inducted, you don't know that's happening. And uh yeah, it was just it was super humbling to to read what people were saying about um things that I've they felt I'd contributed. And I was just really, I don't know, flattered but humbled that uh people would take the time. And um, yeah, every everybody wants to know that they've made a difference. Yeah and are making a difference. And to have your peers uh say that was really, really meaningful.

SPEAKER_07 45:47

That's awesome. How do you plan on celebrating it?

SPEAKER_00 45:49

Well, we're gonna be at the conference in Montreal in a couple weeks where uh that official ceremony will happen.

SPEAKER_02 45:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:56

And then uh I'm gonna take someone I know really, really well to from Montreal to Quebec City on a train for three days.

SPEAKER_07 46:03

Fun.

SPEAKER_00 46:04

And uh we'll it's me, right? It's you, yeah. We'll raise a glass and um just be around friends and amazing.

SPEAKER_07 46:11

Yeah, amazing. What lies ahead for you?

SPEAKER_00 46:14

Well, that's a that's a great question.

SPEAKER_07 46:16

Uh this is your chance to slide in things that I may not know, but what lies at?

SPEAKER_00 46:21

Oh, well, we're going to Quebec City. I guess you kind of knew that.

SPEAKER_07 46:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:25

Uh well, the landmark, my company, landmark, is landmark 3.0 is on its way. So we've purchased a new office space with a little more room. And uh I I foresee a really great new season in that new place in the exchange district, still stay staying where our hearts are. So that's that's very cool. And on the personal front, as you also know, uh, you know, a grandchild on the way. Yeah. So gonna be a granddad and super excited about that too.

SPEAKER_07 46:55

Oh, that's amazing. Thank you for making time for us today. This was a great conversation.

SPEAKER_00 46:59

Thanks for having me. It was really enjoyable.