SPEAKER_00 0:09

Welcome to Between the Threads, a podcast exploring the threads that connect us. Story, memory, identity, and meaning, and how they weave the fabric of peace in our lives and communities. Between the Threads is a joint initiative between Kahani and Narratives. Kahani is a nonprofit organization that amplifies storytelling for peace building. And Narratives is an award-winning planning and design firm based in Winnipeg, Canada. Welcome to the next episode of Between the Threads. On today's episode, we have Jamil Mamoud. Jameel is the executive director of Main Street Project and a longtime advocate for community-led development, harm reduction, and ending homelessness. With a background in international development and grassroots organizing, he has dedicated his career to advancing social justice and supporting people where they're at. Jameel, so nice to finally have you. Thanks for having me. So I like to ask people the first question is always what was a younger version of themselves like? So what was little Jamil like growing up?

SPEAKER_01 1:13

Good question. I love sports as a kid. So most of my growing up was playing on every possible sports team that you can imagine. And then And are these team sports, individual sports? Team sports, yeah. Always team sports, yeah. And uh so really, you know, soccer at a high level, you know, football, volleyball, but like everything, like literally every sport. So then when I got junior high, really got into punk being and listening to punk music. And so that uh is really one of the formative things that really kind of pushed me to be more in the activist world. So I can still remember like the first propagandee song I ever heard, like radicalized me into like then I got involved in like lots of activism. So I did like food. Stuff all from like 16 to 20 something, right? Like, and then got started working in not-for-profits at when I finished university. So okay, but yeah, so I was uh love sports and then kind of transitioned to being punk at later teens, and uh that's incredible.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

Yeah, yeah, I'm always curious like what what drives people into the careers that they that they end up in, and it's I don't think I've ever heard someone going into activism through music through music. I've heard the other way around. Would you tell me more about what that was like? Like what about that kind of music sort of pulled on the right strings there?

SPEAKER_01 2:44

I think you know, at that age, you know, when you're 12, 13, 14, you know, you're uh I think you're pretty influenzable. And I always had a strong urge not to just be normal, like even though like I played sports, like I never wore like sports gear, like I was was like value village, like shopping. And uh I had two older sisters, so you know, you just kind of as a younger brother to two older sisters, you tend to tag along on their value village trips, and then they start dressing you in certain ways, you know. And I think my sister gave my first mohawk haircut, and amazing. So, yeah, so I had like obviously influence, and then uh, you know, I think that's starting to hear punk music and and hearing music that challenged things in a really strong way and like smart ways. Like that's one of the things I love about propagandy, is it's sometimes silly, but like really like you know, I I learned about Noam Chomsky through them, and I learned about like all this stuff because their songs are political in that nature, so it was like a way to learn about you know activist anarchist thinking in a really fun way because you're dancing around and jumping in mosh pits and things like that. And then like that, you know, at that time too, there was a lot of really uh real strong push into anti-racism action stuff. There was lots of there was like a fairly like not a huge but a large skinhead Nazi type punk group. Like there was folks who you know like started going to shows and like trying to keep the show safe and and things like that. So that's kind of then you start seeing the things you're hearing in the songs in your local community, and and I think that's also like the punk community is one of those when it's functioning well, is one of those communities where everyone's welcome, right? Like it no one fits in anywhere, so it didn't matter, you know, everyone dresses weird and important. Gang of misfits, yeah. And so it's just like you're always welcome at a punk show, how it was like growing up, and so then when we start organizing against like the skinheads and things like that, it just like really solidified like my passion for you know organizing and engaging and and fighting for what I think is right, and I think you know very cool. That's what happens when you're a kid, you just you get passionate about things, and in my case it happened to be you know music sticking it to the man.

SPEAKER_00 4:55

I love that. And you know, I was actually just this weekend reflecting on the ways in which um I I came across this song that I used to hear my parents play a lot in the in the early 90s, and but I hadn't heard it since then. So it a remix sort of version of it came up. And my goodness, like the emotions that it evoked in me. And I couldn't, I couldn't believe how strong my emotional reaction to the song was. And the song had a combination of like heartbreak and tragedy, and um, you know, being away from being in Pradesh, being away from home and what that meant. And it made me think about the power that music has in in evoking memories and also like giving us a better sense of what's happening in the world. And in hindsight, I now understand what was happening in my parents' world. And music was a way for them to still find ways to stay connected to that in in some way. So yeah, very interesting. So how did that so that explains your interest in organizing in a social fashion? How did that go into like international development arena? So I'll also say that, like, you know, the punks of the good story.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

Yeah, but like I grew up with very caring parents. Like my mom was a nurse, and she always made sure like we had time for each other as kids. Like she was working, I remember her working like double shifts and still like having to make sure we had a conversation before we went to bed. Like, so I learned a lot of my caring and empathy from my my mom, and then my dad was always organizing. Like we grew up with a different immigrant family in our house, whether they were our family or just adjacent. So, like, I don't remember ever, like, you know, growing up, there wasn't a year where we didn't have a family living in our basement. Uh, my my father was helping them, you know. My family's Ahmadiyya Muslims, so you know, they're persecuted in in Pakistan, and uh, and so I grew up with that as just like the normal thing that there's just like a new auntie cooking piratas every year. Yeah, I can't. And like it's great for extreme. Nothing like waking up to that smell though. Yeah, it's the best, right? Like you just have someone there who's just new to Canada and wants to just feed you all day. It's like that. But like I just remember that, and that's like my dad was always out doing stuff. He was like involved in the NDP, but like lots of labor movement organizing, and I didn't really understand it as a kid, but I also knew that like he was passionate about doing stuff for the communities he cared about, and and so like that also helped really shape kind of uh you know my empathy and stuff like that. So that's uh you know, that's what it was rooted in. And then I think like when I started getting to be independent choices, then then punk just kind of came as that next thing for that. Right.

SPEAKER_00 7:35

And then how did that end up in international development as well?

SPEAKER_01 7:38

Yeah, so uh my sister was taking the program.

SPEAKER_00 7:42

Why was I expecting this?

SPEAKER_01 7:44

I originally went to university to take education.

SPEAKER_00 7:46

I want uh that checks out.

SPEAKER_01 7:48

I want to change the education system because you know I I I'd watched a bunch of my friends failing throughout school and and just like not supported, and uh and there was like so much stigma about taking alternative programs, like I want to be a hairdresser and my dad forbade me because you know Pakistani, like you know, so yeah, but I just felt like my dad did that to my brother about being a mechanic. It's like no. So it's like so I I so I was like, but I also like realized that like you only have like high school doesn't give you much, yeah. So I was like, I want to change that. And then so I originally enrolled in the the five-year intensive, and I did one year, and I was just like, the system's not changing. Like we're not learning anything about that, it's really just about classroom management and like you know, kind of status quo stuff. So I know there's some cool innovators in education, and and that's great, but that's not like what you're being taught. And so my sister was doing international development studies, and at that time a mental assignments college was pretty small, and they were like within the U of W and so uh really drawn to small class size, and like it was like you were just debating in class all the time, so talking about ethics of development work and and stuff like that. So that just appealed to me. And like we didn't talk once about ethics in education in my first year, and so like, so then I was like, oh, this is great, and then uh selfishly, they also funded you to go on practicums. Cool. So I was like, great, the university is gonna pay me to go see the world and and that. So um, yeah, so I was able I joined my sister on her practicum she did in Pakistan, so we went and worked together there, and so I was I was in my first year university, and she was in her third, and so I I went and joined her. We had family, so you know, stay in their family, and we worked with landless people in in Lahore and uh really focused on figuring out how to get them into non-formal education schools because they would be like they're like they're formally nomadic people that just are so poor, they can't even travel around now, and the way things are like they can't do that. So, you know, as kids who are picking trash all day or shoe shining or whatever, um then we'd set up schools in their little tent villages in the evenings, and and it was ran by these three communist doctors that were, you know, cool guys that so we did that for a while, and then like they would come in and like they'd bulldoze their villages every yeah, six months, and so we were working on like getting them land, and so that was like my first like real experience in in this work. And then a few years later I went and did my practicum in Ecuador, and I was working with street kids there and uh similar vibe, like I was working at a shelter that served the kids that would shine shoes or self-ruit on buses and stuff like that, and and similar model where they would run schools in the evening, you know, or or off times when they were like not working, and so so did that, and then really kind of got a real passion there for working with with kids, and then kind of then I came back and while I was finishing university, I uh I started uh working at Spence Neighborhood Association. And that was like my first not-for-profit jobs.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

Sure. So going back to the um the practicums that you did, having reflected on, you know, ethics and development, and it's a it's a very important topic. And I at one of the degree programs that I started and did not finish was actually in international development at York University. And I remember just being very, very frustrated with the ethics conversation because even the ethics conversation felt like it was a very Eurocentric conversation. So I'm curious to hear what that experience was for you. And then going to Pakistan or Ecuador, how did you see that play out?

SPEAKER_01 11:19

Yeah, I think I feel lucky because I've heard this from other folks that have done international development that, like, you know, it probably felt like what I thought education was like in that piece. But I think, you know, we had really cool professors, you know, Judith Harris, Jerry Buckland, like there were some some real progressive folks. And so the push was coming from the students actually to have the conversation about ethics. You know, we were pushing back on, you know, I think uh I don't know if it changed, but I know Metal Simons had a policy of only hiring they get to sign a document saying you believe in Christ or something because they're Mennonite College and uh you know, one of those things. So there was like we were pushing back that any professor should be able to teach if they, you know, sure value alignment, not necessarily based on religious belief and stuff like that. So there was like lots of that internally happening within like and it's talking like it was like 30 students, right? Like it wasn't a huge program. So so that really kind of you know made that uh the ethics conversation deeper than you'd get in like just an ethics class, I think, because we were actively challenging things the university was doing and having those discussions in our classroom. So that was good. And then yeah, and then I went and I I worked in it and I I realized, you know, a lot of even my views were so, you know, colonialist, right? Like you want to go help, and and then but then I also started quickly recognizing that lots of the challenges in developing countries exist here in Winnipeg, right? And and then when I came back and and kind of had that experience, um, I think I I had lucky experience because I know other folks that did their practice and went to like the really well-known, like the Save the Children or the Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, UNICEF charities, and uh and that wasn't my experience, right? And actually my experience was side story. Yeah, yeah. Uh we were in Pakistan and we were trying to get books for the kids to go to school, and then we had heard that UNICEF had like 10,000 of these like school workbooks in their offices, and so we're like, oh we can just go get them. And someone's like, you can try. And so we like we went to the UNICEF office and it's like pulling to this compound in Pakistan, and it's like lined with Land Rovers with UNICEF logos on and like marble entryways, and it was like, you know, it was like wild to be like, oh, this is all the money, and then I'm working for this charity with like these three doctors that are literally using their paychecks to fund, you know, new tents or that. And so, and they were just like, you know, and then because we were Canadian, me and my sister, like we had like the privilege, so you know, they were happy to see you know like we were diplomats or stuff, yeah, yeah. And they were just like, Oh yeah, like like we had a budget surplus we bought all these books for we're not actually gonna distribute, you know, like and so we just like literally like we had this little car and we literally filled it like top of the phone with like like school books, and then like uh yeah, and it was just like such a wild thing to watch like development industry, but like not working outside but working outside it with a smaller, you know, grassroots kind of charity. Like you just saw it in real time, like in such a a huge variance in like what the what the kind of work I was doing on the ground was was impacting, and then what the like charity, traditional charity development model was doing, and it's just like, oh, there's just all this wasted money everywhere. So like that was like, oh, then I was like, oh yeah, there's like a bigger discussion. The bigger challenge to talk about because like, yeah, it's it's an industry like anything else, right? Yeah, and it's pretty easy for not-for-profits to fall into that industry type think thinking when you get to a certain size, right? Like, and so that's always been something I've been very conscious of and and you know, always try to not recreate in the work I do, because then you know you're spending more time maintaining a standard that isn't about serving people in the best way possible.

SPEAKER_00 14:49

Yeah. Oh, that's such a such an interesting thank you for sharing that. When that makes a lot of sense in terms of, you know, your your journey and wrestling with with international development. And that was essentially my experience when I started thinking about international development. One, it was, you know, a mechanism for me to I thought at the time that this would help me understand the challenges that we have in society. And I remember a lot of my friends at the time were like, that's not gonna help you understand anything. If anything, it might make you more angry at the world. And I did feel like that was that ended up being the case. So yeah, very interesting. So how did that experience then translate into, and you touched on this earlier, in working in the world that you do in Winnipeg? How did that happen?

SPEAKER_01 15:38

Yeah, so I came back and and you know, I'd already been doing things like Food Not Bombs. So I was like being aware of like street level poverty in Winnipeg and kind of what was going on, but it just made me more resolved to want to do something here because you know, if you look at like the problems in in developing countries, like they seem very big and very hard to tackle, but I was like, well, we're a country here that has everything, you know, we have all the things. We have all the chops. And uh and so this is solvable, especially in Winnipeg. Like I, you know, like I was like, this is this should be easy. We could solve this in five years. Right. I didn't think that, but I was like, like the problem I still believe that about a lot of problems. Well the problems aren't too big, right? They're they're they're simple uh in terms of like people need food, people need to get out of poverty, like you know, and a city like Winnipeg is is manageable because you don't have 10 million people, right? You have a million people, right? And so you're like or less. Um, and so that's been always my thought is like, well, if I can't make a change here, me going to a different country, I'm not gonna make that change there on a much larger issue if I can't do it here. So then that was when I came back from my practice. I was very resolved on figuring out how to do more work here in Winnipeg. And and then I I started working at Spence Neighborhood Association and got really into community development and such a unique place, like the the neighborhood renal corporation model that existed, uh still exists, but not in the same degree. But uh, where you just bring the community together and you develop a community five-year plan in multiple areas, so not just one line of work, but stuff that'll make the whole neighborhood better, and then you implement that plan, right? So it's like it's not a government-issued plan, it's not that, it's about what the people who live in the neighborhood, volunteer work in the neighborhood, want to see to make their community better. And and then that just gave me the license to just go and do the things I wanted to do to make change. And yeah, and I I was there for 15 years.

SPEAKER_00 17:24

Wow, okay. And that this was before Main Street. Yeah. Okay, so talk to me about Main Street.

SPEAKER_01 17:29

Yeah, so yeah, I I worked at Spence for 15 years, and then the last few years I started working street outreach with street connections for the New York Regional Health Authority. So that became my exit out of Spence, you know, like after that long at one organization, right? Like I was ready to move on. So then I did a couple years doing street outreach and uh loved harm reduction outreach, like it just like driving a van around the city, meeting people where they're at, doing the important work of getting people, you know, safe supplies, but also like connection to treatment for sexually transmitted bloodborne infections, and and you know, uh just people could call you and you'd go and help them, right? It was like a great model, and so I was doing that, but I also had a lot of frustrations working within the health system or the health system, and so the you know, the anarchist in me was just like uh you know, I want to do these things that help, and then I was being blocked on doing very simple things that would have just made the program better, and so I was getting frustrated and then like what like during the pandemic, everything was closed down except like we were on the road, we're in full PPE, yeah. But uh I use my community connections to like arrange, like the West Central Women's Research Center was doing bagged lunches, so I was like, hey, it'd be great if we could get you know a hundred of those a night, you know, we see like 300 people a night during the van or whatever it is. Like I'd love to be able to serve some food because you know people have less access, food banks aren't open. Like you know, early pandemic days was like everything was unknown. Yeah, um, and I I literally got called from a manager and said, You can't do this. And they were like tried to say like food safety, and I was like, Well, it's done in a food safe kitchen, like all the things we're getting in the cooler, we had you know at least three hours of of you know like we had done all this stuff, yeah. And so I was like, why? And they're like, because the people above says we're not a food program. And I was like, I get that, but we're also in the middle of this pandemic that we're not familiar with anything we're doing, so why wouldn't we just be a conduit? We're already the like we're one of the few outreach teams still on the street. Like, why would we just keep helping people with what they need? And food insecurity was huge at the start of the pandemic, it kind of like regulated as more programs got up and doing bagged lunches and stuff over time. But at that time, there was like very few places people could get food, and so much places we would go to get like Dale bread and stuff like that were just closed, right? So it just created like a huge gap. And so, yeah, they I literally told that I would lose my job if I did it, and I was like, okay, this is probably not the place I want to like build a career in, and and then yeah, and I'd always told I told myself that if there's an opportunity to work at Main Street Project, I already admired the kind of grassroots nature of the work and and that kind of like working with the the kind of people that need it the most in the most complex ways and and doing the very simple thing of just meeting people where they're at and supporting them with that. So yeah, I'd already I always admired the that and then the position came up and I okay and thus assistant.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

Wow. I have wanted to unpack this for a while, so I feel like you're the best person to unpack this with. This notion of meeting people where they're at while also finding ways to help people transition in meaningful ways. And I don't know where the balance is for those. So I'd love to hear yeah, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that because I wrestle with that a lot because I'd love to keep meeting people where they're at. And also if there's nothing changing in the circumstances, and there's so many complicated variables that result in people being where they where they're at when we meet them. But yeah, how do you how do you wrestle with all of that?

SPEAKER_01 21:09

Yeah, I think it's a really good point. Like meeting people they're at is kind of becoming a buzz phrase too, right? Like and so I think the the place that I've always landed and and feel very strongly about is it's not my life. It's you know, it's their life. It's up to people to decide how they live their life. And more and more I think we're seeing meeting people where they're at becoming like being open at first and then being very prescriptive in how they want people to respond to the options you're giving folks. And I've never we've never done that, uh, we don't do that in Main Street Project, and I've never done that. You you don't get to tell someone how to live their life or how to do something. It it's if you're truly meeting people where they're at, you're listening to them and you're working on the things that are important to them and you're giving them options. And they may not take those options, yeah. Uh, they may not be ready to, or they may never want to take those options, and that's okay. And you have to be okay with that, and I think. The premise to help somebody or provide support shouldn't be based on them doing the right thing in your opinion or doing what society thinks is the right thing, right?

SPEAKER_00 22:09

Like, and that's where I think it gets really confusing for people because well, and that's also where it gets a little bit complicated because what society believes is the right thing to do in the moment is influenced by so many different variables. Like if I think of what was considered appropriate 10 years ago, that is not okay today, or was probably not okay even 10 years ago, but that constantly changes. And I remember like my my Miyagi, my great grandfather, would often talk about uh when people would approach him to resolve uh, you know, Sulaq Rada, could you help us resolve an issue? He would often speak about how the solution to a matter is what society in the moment is also willing to accept as a reasonable solution. So there's never a right or wrong answer. And I think to me that comes very alive when I think about the idea of meeting meeting people where they're at. It's it's complicated.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

Yeah, yeah, it is. And I I think it's you know, I liken it often if you simplify it down, like it's like you know, you see someone on the corner asking you for change.

SPEAKER_02 23:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:20

Some people will just give people change, no questions asked.

SPEAKER_02 23:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:24

You need this more than I do. Yeah, right. Like, but a lot of people start getting to like, well, what are you gonna use this for? Yeah. I give you money, you're gonna buy drugs or alcohol, you're gonna do this or that, right? Like, and and like one, like once you give someone a gift to you, they'll say how it does. Also, like if you give me money, I'm maybe spending on drugs and alcohol. Yeah, like that's where most people spend their money. Yeah, you know, and so like the the judgment, I think, is where it gets in, and then the people trying to it it it inherently assumes a power position too. Yeah, and and prescribing people to follow a certain path that you think is the right one for them, which is often and then if you give people the option to go to like a detox or treatment and they'd say no, then most people are like, Well, you're you're not you're not wanting to help. And it's like, and that's what happens a lot with service agencies, and and so we're always like, here's a like, you know, we tell people what we can provide them, but also what like what's most important to you right now. And 90% of the time, especially people who are very street entrenched, it's their health. Yeah, they they don't feel good, they're hurting, they have an ailment, they have something that's unresolved. You can't even talk about housing, you can't even talk about sobriety, you can't even talk about anything until they deal with that thing. So, so much of our work is just getting people basic primary care. And then through that, you build trust, you build a relationship, and you can work with people on what is your next goal.

SPEAKER_02 24:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

And you know, maybe their goal to be housed or their goal to be sober or their goal to whatever is far away right now. So you just focus on things that are important to them, and and if you're truly meeting people there at, you're gonna walk that path with them, regardless of the route it takes. And I think that's where it gets, you know, meeting people where they're at is great to say I went to the street and I sat with the person, but then most of the time people end up saying, Well, they didn't want help, so I left.

SPEAKER_02 25:09

Right.

SPEAKER_01 25:10

And uh and it's like, well, maybe they maybe didn't just want the help you were offering.

SPEAKER_00 25:14

Yeah, and then to me, the meeting people where they're at, one, there's so much depth to that phrase. It's it's about relationship then. And when you're in relation with someone, then you don't just leave the minute they say no. And it's a very typical trauma response to say no to help. Like it takes years, and no matter how little, you know, little T trauma or big T trauma you have, it takes years to even be willing to receive help or ask for help is like out of the question. So then meeting people where they're at is about taking the time to build a relationship so that when they feel ready, that you can provide the additional support that needs to be.

SPEAKER_01 25:56

And it's what they and it's what they want to do, right? And it's not what you think is best for somebody or what society there's this big perception that there's like if you're a good homeless person, if you follow the rules, you don't make a mess, you you don't be loud, you don't call then you get some better supports and any of that. But like, you know, we talk a lot to people, but like when we encounter people and most people, maybe the worst day of their life. Yeah, you know, or it might be the worst month, it could be the worst year they've been going through for a long time. It's not like these are new issues, and you have to factor that into everything you do. So like they may throw a cup of coffee at the wall or or whatever, or get angry, and and you know, and we tell our staff like that's not a reflection on you or your work, it's a reflection of where they're at in that moment, and and all you can do is is offer to say, hey, let's clean that up and let's like figure out how to work through this frustration or or whatever you're doing. But we're here to to be on on your your pace and your schedule and and where you're at with things, and that goes a long way. And then you have to show up all the time.

SPEAKER_02 26:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:54

Meeting people where they're at isn't uh check we checked on you once this day, and then we'll come back a month from now. Like you have to show up for people, and and that's a big part of what we do is we're always there 24-7, responding for and meeting people where they're at and their needs, and and you gotta keep showing up. And uh, and that takes time. You gotta remember that people, the colonial structure, the residential schools, like all that trauma doesn't go away because you offer to help someone in a certain way. Get them one rate. And so you have to show up for people and you have to work through that. They have to know that you're not gonna, you're not there for ulterior motives, right? You're not trying to get, you know, make yourself look good or things like that. And and they've been burned a lot. Like people have been don't trust the system. You know, we can't even get people to go to primary care when they have huge wounds on them because they've had such a bad experience in health care. Right. Um, and so thank goodness we have like aperture those runs in mobile health primary care because before that, like we were like tr trying to beg doctors to come on our outreach van, and most of what they would do is simple wound care. But if you don't get that care, it ends up being an amputation in a year from now, right? And things like that, like really severe outcomes if if we don't if we don't get care to people where they need it. But yeah, the systems have been so bad that people don't want to go for, you know, they're in so much pain, but they won't want to walk in a hospital because they know how they're gonna get treated, right? So those are really hard things, and so we we are a lot of our work is finding alternative ways to support people.

SPEAKER_00 28:17

Yeah, you know. So part of what we were hoping to reflect on, and this is a great segue into it, part of what we were hoping to reflect on in this season is how different cities tell their story. And one angle that we've been uh thinking a lot about lately is how when someone is displaced from their community, how do they rebuild their sense of connection to that community? So I'd love to hear your thoughts on what you see in the work that Main Street Project does for how how that sense of community or how that sense of even being who you are, if you can find the echoes of that, how do you rebuild that? What do you see?

SPEAKER_01 28:59

Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of our work is trying to build communities in the spaces where we we have, you know, our shelter, our housing buildings, right? Like, so a big part of our work is really figuring out how do you make people feel comfortable. Like, and I know lots of people don't see it this way, but but the the Maine and Higgins and Logan area, like where all the shelters are, like that's a full community. Like, you know, like it's it has its, you know, place people do recreation, people have fun, you know, like it has all those things. It doesn't look the same as other communities, but it's all there, and people call it home. And it it's what they know as home, and it's where their family is, it's where their street families are. And I I think we'd forget about that because it's an emergency service for the most part, and it's like, you know, but but shelters are places that people feel comfortable going or they don't, right? And and you know, and so but but there's definitely one thing I've learned in all my work doing community building is that the community of of folks on the street is is stronger, and probably uh I've seen more care and more people going out of their way when they have absolutely nothing to take care of their community than I have in in any other examples of community work I've done. Um it's so beautiful. I mean, it it sucks that people are in the situation where you know they're they're on these life or death kind of situations, but they're they'll always show up and take care of each other, that you know they'll they'll do that. It you know, it obviously comes with its challenges and that, but but it's really the strongest community, you know, I've ever worked in. And uh, and but a lot of people don't see it that way. And so just because it looks different. Yeah, and so you know, for us when I think about about Winnipeg, I you know, I think how do we how do we tell that story? How do we show that, you know, and we've we've launched a project called the Mainsterior Action Plan, which really kind of focuses on, you know, one of the main pillars is gonna be like how do we name this area and how do we we how do we call it a community and how do we rebrand it as you know a really valuable part of our community, even though it may not look like what people consider thriving communities are. It has all those elements of of you know care, mutual aid, like all those things exist in in our community, and so it's just not well branded.

SPEAKER_00 31:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:04

So you know, we're we're gonna work on that, that branding of Cy. And uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:08

It's a really important like thing that you put your finger on there about the community one that being a community and calling that out for what it is. It is a sense of community, people are caring about each other, and ultimately it makes me wonder what our society considers a community to be in the first place. Is it is the definition of a community something that has paved roads and this, that, and the other? What is the checklist? Or is a community a place where people care about each other, people lean on each other, people share whatever minimal resources they have? What is considered, and this opens up a whole new, you know, can of worms for me about like what I always wrestle with the term developing countries as an example, is because like who gets to decide. And for obvious bias, like I consider ourselves very well developed and nuanced and carrying a lot of ancestral history and all of those things. So I'm just reflecting on what is a community and how what how important it becomes to in a way help others see that this community is just as much a community as any other place.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

Yeah, I mean I think about that a lot. I also think about like community places, right? Like if you look at suburban community centers, like 20, 30 years ago, they were hubs of the community, there'd be events, all this stuff. Like now they're almost all designed for like you show up, you do your one activity, right? And then you leave, right? Like, like some are different. Like, you know, but like generally speaking, they're they're not places where you just go and hang out or spend time, like you go to do an activity, a sport or cooking class, you know, whatever it is, and then you're you leave. And and that's like that's like the model of community we put out there. It's like here's our city funded community. Yeah, right. And and to me, like like the things like we see in our shelters and and other shelters and and great programs are are you build spaces that people want to be in, and uh they value those spaces, whether they're getting a service or they're spending time or getting a skill, like, but it's it's not about doing one thing, it's about building that that connection and space, and and we lose that a lot. I think the more we block doors, the more we you know control entries, the way we do all this stuff, and and yeah, I think they're you know, and then it's often all done through like a safety lens, but yeah, you know, we always ask safety for who. Yeah, and usually that question is never answered with everybody. Yeah, it's like people who pay or people we deem or val valued for our service, right? And so yeah, so that's always the first question I ask people when they ask me about community stuff, and and you know, and I tell this to everyone like we get asked every day, how can I help? Like, how can I help with homelessness? How can I do that? And I'm like, look in your own backyard. Because like you have a community library, I think every city, every neighborhood generally, I know it's not great, yeah, but has a library, has a few community centers, has a rec center, right? Like those are all spaces you could just open a free clothing place in or have a free meal once a weekend and get your neighbors together, right? And and I think we have to go back to that kind of thing because I think that's how good communities were really built, about people making spaces where you could communally enjoy each other and events and things like that. And and I think we've lost a lot of that in in the structure we've kind of developed. Oh, interesting. Yeah. And so I tell everybody, I was like, Oh, you're concerned about people out in the cold in the winter? Open your library for three hours and have some volunteers come and help people stay warm, right? Because like I can send an outreach van out to pick those folks up and bring them to a safe place, but you know, how busy we are, that may take an hour, maybe take two. And you could just that person clearly wants to be in that neighborhood, so maybe you could just figure out a way to make them feel included and welcome in the amenities you have. And at first, people get really defensive about that, like we couldn't we couldn't do that. We couldn't was like, why not?

SPEAKER_00 35:01

Yeah, why not?

SPEAKER_01 35:02

And uh, and yeah, and I think if we did more of that stuff, more mutual aid work, you know, we'd see much stronger communities.

SPEAKER_00 35:09

How do you help people? And the disconnect that I'm seeing is in understanding that sense of community. And there's there's so much stigma around poverty, so much stigma around homelessness and everything else that goes goes with it, the whole package of you know, challenges that goes with it. There's willingness to help on the other end, but how do you help people actually understand? Like, what does that look like?

SPEAKER_01 35:39

Yeah, I mean, you try to educate folks, you try to make people aware of like what reality is like for people.

SPEAKER_03 35:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:47

I think that that helps people understand better. You know, we try to relate the work to the person, right? Like, I think everybody knows somebody in their life that has struggles with addiction or with mental health, or and so like if you get people to think in that way, being like, Oh, if this was your brother, if this was your sister or your parent, like what would you want from them right now? And and what would you do? I I think it's hard. I think it's getting harder. You know, I we saw this incredible outpouring at the start of the pandemic of empathy and like needing to do the right thing for each other. Yeah, um, and it was amazing. Like the most beautiful things, it was hard because everyone was going through this shared trauma of this, but we saw people caring about other people like we've I've never seen before. And not that people didn't care before, but I think it was more obvious, right? Like it became much more obvious if you had your own place, and if you didn't, what you know, you would be safe in your own house and you would be safe from COVID and all the other things, right? But you were safe in that. But if you didn't have that, people really understood that, like, oh, this is a really hard time. I'm happy, I can stay in my house with my loved ones and my pets and be a good, but like these people can't, and these are people that maybe would have crash at friends' houses or do stuff like that, that now are all out on the street. And so people really understood that. And and the outpouring we saw in terms of support and you know, people really caring was huge. And then near the end of the pandemic, we saw this really like shift to like stop caring about other people and you know, start blaming organizations doing work on the front lines for why homelessness exists and and things like that. And uh it's really hard. It's it's probably the worst I've ever seen right now in terms of stigmatizing poverty and and folks in our community, and and it's and it's not just in Winnipeg, it's across the country. Like I talked to yeah, shelter leaders and sector leaders from Kotch Country, and they all tell me the same thing. One of the the guy one of the leaders in Montreal wants to do a campaign where we all put signs on our shelters saying homelessness doesn't start here, right?

SPEAKER_03 37:44

Right.

SPEAKER_01 37:44

And and but like but I think like why do you think that is? I think the political narrative's changed quite a bit. I think you know, the you're seeing more kind of, you know, you know, we can look at some of the policies here locally around encampment bands and stuff like that. Like the language isn't about how do we help people who are living in encampments, it's how do we keep them out of parks where kids are and things like that, right? Like and and then you know, nationally, I think there's more divisive stigmatizing language with the last election campaign. We saw the conservatives launch, you know, a real attack on people using substances and poor people, and you know, like and so like it was and then that gets you know, and then social media's wild doesn't help.

SPEAKER_03 38:20

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 38:21

And it gives people this weird thing that you can just say anything and you know, and often it's very harmful. And so like I think those factors all combined just really started changing how people like saw this. And and I, you know, I saw it in my own family. Like, I you know, I you know, people I thought would understand, yeah, you know, making comments that were like, oh, that's super that's really up. And then you have to talk to them and you know have those conversations. And I think that whole thing with like the you know, I think it grew out of the anti-vax stuff is that like like people really felt they didn't trust what the government was telling them, and and then it really radicalized people in a certain way and it never got back.

SPEAKER_00 38:59

Like, you know, and and language is so important. Years ago we're looking at um all sorts of reasons that people get radicalized. And one of uh one of the research bodies of research that I came across at the time was around narrative. Like how do you what is what how is this how is this challenge talked about in society? And challenge is a gentle word, I use it on purpose there because the the research was incredibly enlightening because if you talk about it as if the language is we need to combat something, that means you have already talked about something as an enemy. And we see this language a lot combat obesity, combat diabetes, combat poverty. So that means poverty is the enemy. And if poverty is the enemy, then why would I be empathetic towards my enemy? And language is so important for how we frame or how we prepare people to look at solutions in society. And you're right, like we are continuing to see a lot of that language around us. And one of that that I've started seeing a lot lately is around homelessness. And you know, circling back to where we started with some of the ethics in the development, uh, international development work, I'm starting to get a feel for, and this is like early raw, unprocessed sort of thinking, I'm starting to feel like we're treating homelessness as an industry. And that really worries me because the language I'm starting to see some indicators of language similar to international development work now emerging in conversations where we talk about homelessness. I'd love to hear your thoughts on what your observations are around you when we're talking about homelessness.

SPEAKER_01 40:57

Yeah, I definitely I'm always cautious because I think, like, you know, I'm obviously biased because I work in the industry. But I I think that just the way people talk about this industry and that people are only in it because they make money and for their jobs, like that's pretty common right now. We hear it a lot. And I think it's super harmful because I think anyone working in this work that is, I mean, I know there's some bad actors everywhere, everywhere in every industry. Yeah, absolutely. But generally speaking, 99% of the people are here because they care and want to do the right thing. Yeah, I I think it's tricky. I think the challenging part is is we don't have a ton of control over where dollars go, right? Like governments decide who gets grants, where money goes, foundations, you know, philanthropic, like you know, you know, there's as people doing the work, like our job is to, you know, chart out our path and through strat plans and and our programs, right? Like, but you know, we're constantly having to try to find money to keep things operational or run, and we don't often have a say in what the next funding call is, right? Like, and so you know, very something very simple, like the federal government changing a stream of funding can uproot the whole industry for certain people, right? And and that creates a lot of challenges. So I think like, yes, there's an industry being created for sure, uh, but it's being created by government, right? And uh and it's being often controlled and monitored by government in lots of ways. And it just takes me back to like homelessness and poverty are policy decisions. Uh, and we're not the ones making the policy decision in the community. You know, we focus a lot on talking about there's crisis and there's emergency right now, and we have to do work to keep people alive and safe. Yeah, uh, but that shouldn't be where the work stops.

SPEAKER_02 42:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:45

Right. And often we'll get the dollars for the emergency thing because it's an emergency.

SPEAKER_00 42:50

Because it's an emergency.

SPEAKER_01 42:51

But I always talk about it needs to be okay, this is the emergency now. But the hope is that in you know, six months, a year or whatever, that then you've put enough support in place to address the emergency that you can start now moving to the longer-term solution stuff, right? So, yeah, shelters were very important. They were a place that we needed for many years.

SPEAKER_02 43:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:11

Um, but they were based on this very outdated model where there's lots of single men uh often struggling with substance use, staying in downtown hotels. As those hotels started changing, they ended up out on the street. And then we saw, you know, a lot of the de-institutionalizing of mental health, uh, which is very important. And I always want to make sure I think we shouldn't institutionalize mental health, but it it it de-institutionalized without the promise they made that we would build community uh that to address it, would be community homes and place for people to go because people do need support 24 7 and you know, depending on what their needs are, right? And and so we never did that. And so that's what the homeless population is, right? It's a combination of those two things, and it's growing because we're not doing anything on the policy level that changed that. But so so, yes, so we need to do the stuff to respond to emergency. But we also need to be talking about how we then morph that as the emergency changes into a more permanent long-term solution. And that's where no one wants to have that conversation.

SPEAKER_00 44:08

Well, and also that's that's a big paragraph to make for a sensational soundbite. Yeah. And I think that I see that as one of the challenges is whenever something becomes a sector, an industry, there's a huge risk and it can be mitigated. So I don't want to just say that, you know, it's a risk. The risk is that it gets siloed. And the conversation, the conversation about homelessness is not just about building infrastructure, like and physical infrastructure. It's about so many other things as well. And I think that that nuance is really important to uphold as we have these conversations. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:49

And and you know, for some things, you know, we push like the the things that industry does well, like protect workers, like I mean, depending on the industry, but should do well, or you know, protect workers, build structures, build networks that help advance other work, you know, like like you know, those are the things I I think we should be doing, because I think it's good. You can't do this work if everyone who's a helper is burnt out and you know that. And so you do have to to build a some level of structure to help people. Uh, and you can't expect people to do this really complex work for free, right? And and I think because a lot of this grew out of charity or volunteer labor, like a lot of people just think that's how it should go. I I fully don't think we should have a homelessness industrial complex that exists, but I think we should have the right industry to build the housing we need, to build the sports we need, to do this. And we're not talking about hundreds of dollars, we're talking about millions of dollars that it needs to build appropriate housing. Should that have been done by governments over the last 30 years where we invested very little in building the housing we're gonna need for the future, right? Like, yes, uh, but it wasn't. And so, like, like we can spend all day talking about you know the change in the 90s, late earlier, late 80s, early 90s, and the homelessness funding and in building social housing and all those things, right? Like, but we still need to be doing the work today and we need to do it in the best way possible. Yeah, um, and so yeah, yeah, like I don't want to take any of the bad things from industry, but I want to take the things that make sense to protect our people, to make sure we're providing the best possible service, that we're doing like quality improvement in our work, right? Like, you know, when you learn about if they're using something in car manufacturing that can make a food bank run better because there's better systems, like why wouldn't we use that stuff, right? Like and we're so far behind in the not-for-profit sector with tech, right? Like, because we couldn't afford tech for a year, right?

SPEAKER_00 46:47

Like, like we, you know, well, and also like you know, the nonprofit sector, there's there's so many systemic challenges in how the world of charitable organizations, for example, is set up. You know, in in trying to navigate charitable status, for example, it's like you need to be able to demonstrate this is not gonna go well with CRA. We it's like you need to be able to demonstrate that you will forever be able to maintain a dependency as opposed to becoming independent. And systematically, that feels like a real challenge. So there are so many systemic issues with with how things are structured that really needs a little bit of a bit of a shakeup. Maybe I was listening to your kind of music too at some point. It must have been there in the background.

SPEAKER_01 47:37

I mean, I think the problem with industry is capitalism, right? Like, and I think that's gonna be the challenge always. Like, because capitalism sells this dream that you work hard, you make lots of money, and you'll be very successful, right? Like, and the reality is that's one percent of people. Yeah, and uh, and so you know, I'd rather focus on the dream that is let's build strong community that helps each other and takes care of each other. And yeah, maybe down the road we don't need as many charities or as many, you know, non-for-profits doing this work, that'd be great. But then we have to replace that with community care.

SPEAKER_00 48:09

With care.

SPEAKER_01 48:10

And I think that's a really important part of the conversation because I know when I talk to people like like we'd love to be out of business, I'd love to be doing something else, you know, but that's not the reality of the place we are now. But the way we get there isn't through taking all the money away from not-for-profits and cutting all these essential services we need on the ground. Yeah, it's building strong communities because the not-for-profit model is as flawed as any business model, right? Like for so much it relies on a very strong leader to drive things in the right way, you have to be very moral. And if you're not, very bad things can happen, right? And and in the name of people. And so it does, you know, the a board model is not great either. You're asking volunteers to oversee some very complex things, right? They're not great models for how we do this work, but yeah, the other thing I think that we the not-profit does poorly for the most part is it doesn't build enough community because it's great, you can have a support worker for eight hours a day, but then what happens the other math? Yeah, 16 hours. How many hours do you have to not do math? The other 16 hours, what happens, right? And and for me or you, we have family. Yeah, and so anything happens in those hours, call family or friends or whatever. If you don't have that, who you can't call anybody.

SPEAKER_02 49:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:26

So where are you? You're in a shelter struggling with whatever your challenges and you have no help, right? So I do think there's a need to change stuff. I think every, you know, every not-for-profit should consider their role is to help build really healthy relationships with people that aren't getting paid to be in their life as well, right? Yeah, and because that's important, like there is a divide when you're being paid to support someone and when you're not, right? Like it's a different thing. And and I don't I work in the industry, I do the work, I don't fault people for working in this industry, but the all ultimate goal should be that if I'm helping this person the best way possible, I'm doing things in the way they want to do it. And then I'm also trying to help build them a social net that will help them when I'm not around, or maybe they won't need me long term after a while, but but there's no support for that.

SPEAKER_02 50:09

Right.

SPEAKER_01 50:10

You can't get funding for that stuff, like you know, like besides holding events and things like that, which are a good way to make people connect, that's the hardest part. And until we start to figure out how to build that community around people and that that social support network that isn't a paid model, we won't see a dramatic change in stuff.

SPEAKER_00 50:27

That's a really important nuance. And it especially when we think about um what it what it takes to build community, it's harder to rebuild community after a rupture. And that is really important to remember in the work that you do, in the work that I do. Like often we're working with people who's who had a community, who generationally their community has been disrupted, and now they've rebuilt a community. And the irony is that we don't recognize their new community as community. Or we don't like it, or we don't like it because it looks different. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:07

Yeah, and I think this kind of gets back to the first point. I think was the question about how to help people return to home communities and stuff like that. You know, we've done uh a fair bit of, we had a student do a research project on this, and it's really about, you know, one, obviously addressing the acute challenges. So mental health addiction, whatever it is, right? Like often there's so much shame and guilt that returning home uh is hard.

SPEAKER_02 51:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:29

Um if you're still active in your addiction or you're struggling with your mental health. Big time. That's really hard, especially in small communities, right? Because it's like in the city, you can be more anonymous.

SPEAKER_02 51:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:38

But you go to a small community, everybody knows everything, right? And and like there's no seek, you know, like all that stuff, right? And and so a lot of what we when we talk to folks about what they would need, it's about, you know, how do I build up my bundle? How do I build up my, you know, can I reconnect with, you know, if it's indigenous communities, their ceremony, their medicines, right? And if they can go back feeling like they have that connection to those things, it helps them back in their home community. But if you just send someone back with nothing, just like a bus ticket back home, yeah. You know, uh you're gonna set people up for failure in a lot of ways. So it's really, and and that, you know, it looks different in every community, but I think that's a really important part is it has to be in a conversation with what the community can support, because if there's no support there, they're gonna end up struggling or failing and coming back. Two, it's also about how do we build those those pathways so people can feel confident going back in. They've done enough healing from trauma or addiction or mental health that they feel they can go back in a good way, and and that's when we see real success and change. And then they're you're welcome back to the community with open arms, and it's great, right? But that takes a lot of time, and I think the one thing that we're missing the most of in this work is healing.

SPEAKER_02 52:44

Yeah, big time.

SPEAKER_01 52:45

We don't, you know, we talk about being trauma-informed a lot, but in terms of actual healing care, like yeah, um, you know, if it's not a traditional, you know, North American health model type medication or whatever, there's not a lot of help for folks to deal with with trauma in a good way. And it's one of the areas I still can't understand why there's not more investment in programming for people doing healing.

SPEAKER_00 53:08

Because it's not if healing is messy, healing is not linear. I can't I can't build a healing plan for anybody and say, you know, one session a month and you're gonna be good to go in five sessions from now. Because there's no predictability there, you can't predict it. You you don't know how trauma is manifested in you, you don't know where it's sitting in your body, you don't know where it's sitting in your behavior, your action, your thought processes, so it's not easy. It's not easy, and unless it's a very straightforward outcomes-based return of investment model, it's tricky for people to wrap their heads around. So, what does it look like? This is my final question. When we imagine, when you imagine Winnipeg, say 10 years from now, what does Winnipeg what do you want Winnipeg to look like?

SPEAKER_01 54:00

Yeah, I I I'll start maybe by just saying we're at a very pivotal point, I think, in our city's trajectory. So um I feel like I've said this for the last three months on repeat non-stop, but if we don't do more right now to address street level drug use, toxic drug supply, um, and the impact it's having on our community, yeah. Um, we're at a point now where some of the the physical manifestations of it, like seeing people using substances on street corners, will be everywhere in the city. And and so we have to do more now to see the Winnipeg I want to see, or else it'll get to a point where we're gonna go the direction of like Toronto or Vancouver, where they've really entrenched those behaviors uh into the cities, right? And so my vision involves us being very active right now to make a change for that. I will keep saying it to everyone I talk to that we have to act now, and um it may not look the ways that are popular publicly to the general public. So we have to also be okay with doing unpopular things to support people. Um but yeah, my my vision is a Winnipeg where people have the supports they need where they need them and in a way that is dynamic and fluid for them. We're engaging people in the solution, those that are involved in using substances or whatever, that they're guiding how that looks and and what that solution looks like. And we're we're building a community that that just fully cares. And we're I think we've got two accepting of poverty and visible homelessness. And uh, you know, when we had folks come from Finland to visit and teach us about their models, they were shocked. They could not believe that we had so much visible homelessness in a city like Canada. And uh, and we all should be shocked. Like that should be a thing we should never be comfortable with. Yeah, we should never be comfortable with encampments, we should never be comfortable with people using substances on the side of the road. You know, we should never be comfortable with that stuff, and we should always be challenging. The solution isn't lock everyone up, yeah. So, and that's where we tend to go, and that's where governments tend to go because you can have a very short-term impact if you just lock up a bunch of people, right? Like, and and so like we really need to create systems that can create care in a way that doesn't look the same for everybody, but and also doesn't look the way people want it to look. Yeah, but you know, having places where people can go and be intoxicated, yeah. Versus we've done it with alcohol. Yeah, we know what that looks like, it looks very fun. People can dance all night, yeah. People accept that. You can do that too with other substances, right? And you can create these spaces that help people and then create opportunities for people to get other services and connections, right? We're not even willing to have that conversation 90% of the time. You can look at the challenge to a safe consumption site we're we're facing. We're gonna have our first one shortly, but just the fact that it's faced all this backlash, not grounded in any research or science, but yeah, just based on you know people's discomfort. A really right-wing push from you know Alberta and other places that are just being transplanted into to raise objections. And um, and that's when we see real harm. When we stop making decisions based on, you know, good research and evidence, and we make it based on what's popular and you know what the general public will will understand. We're gonna we're gonna backslide many years. And so uh my hope is that we we can have a city that wants to see a different outcome and takes care of our most vulnerable first.

SPEAKER_02 57:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:24

Um, and if we do that, I think we're we'll be amazing. I think, you know, there's really great things, you know. I look all often at the disability services community and you know, the things they've done in terms of building community and building, you know, folks that need extra support into regular community and daily lives and building that. Like I look at that as as you know, it's not always perfect, but that that effort and that trajectory that happened was was really good for so many people. You can see people working jobs, living more independently, like even though they have support still, we can do that with this work and and this important stuff. It'll it'll just look different and we have to be okay with that. But I think we can have a city where that happens. Yeah. We have to stop playing political wins. We have to, you know, this shouldn't be a political issue.

SPEAKER_02 58:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:06

Like solving poverty and homelessness should not be a very community. Something that elections are ran or won on, right? Like, and and more and more that that seems to be the case. Uh the other thing is we have to hold people accountable.

SPEAKER_02 58:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:17

And until we hold our government accountable, we won't see a change.

SPEAKER_02 58:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:20

Right? Like, you know, I we've seen people run on platforms of ending homelessness.

unknown 58:25

Right.

SPEAKER_01 58:25

But if they're not willing to do the work to end homelessness, then it's all empty gestures, right? And so we have to be really clear and like there needs to be accountability, just like I think in our sector, we have to be accountable as well, right? Like, like uh, you know, I can tell you exactly where every dollar goes in my organization and what it was used for and why we did it that way and stuff like that. There's not that accountability level at a provincial or governmental level, right? Like, um, and until people are held accountable for their commitment and their promises, we want to see a change. Uh and and that takes every person. That takes everyone. It takes them to vote in a way that uh that says, I want change. Yeah. And I want to see that. And and that's how it's happened in every country that's seen a change in poverty and homelessness is the general population said, I don't want this. I want something better, and unless you're gonna do it, I'm gonna, you know, political leadership shouldn't be about doing what's popular. Yeah, it should be doing what's what's right. And uh I think we can do it. Uh yeah, I think we have the right people in our province, we have the right people here.

SPEAKER_00 59:25

We have the bones, we have the structure, we have the will. And yeah, thank you so much, Mile, for your time today. Really appreciated the nuance that you offered to the conversation. And I'm, you know, for me, so many takeaways. I'm gonna be thinking about this for for a long time. Uh, but one of the ones that really resonated deeply with me was this notion of building community with care and what that means. Care in all of its beautiful shapes and colors, and also what does it actually mean to have a community, irrespective of whether or not you like the shape of it or the sight of it or whatever that looks like. So beautiful reminders. Thank you so much for your time and all the wisdom today.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:07

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:08

Thank you.