SPEAKER_03 0:09

Welcome to Between the Threads, a podcast exploring the threads that connect us: story, memory, identity, and meaning, and how they weave the fabric of peace in our lives and communities. Between the Threads is a joint initiative between Kahani and Narratives. Kahani is a nonprofit organization that amplifies storytelling for peace building. And Narratives is an award-winning planning and design firm based in Winnipeg, Canada.

SPEAKER_04 0:38

Welcome to the final episode of Between the Threads. On today's episode, I sit down with Court Friesen and myself. One should sit down with oneself every now and then to reflect on what the season was all about. We reflect on the conversations with each of the incredible guests that we had, what stayed with us, what it made us think of, what it means for the city that we all belong to, or find ways of belonging to. Let's talk about some of the highlights of the season. What stands out?

SPEAKER_02 1:13

Yeah. I was thinking about that as I was um driving to work today, and I think the cool part about a season and like as we curate it is that we're trying to bring all these different people with different backgrounds and different stories, but that each person who listens will have different connections to each person in each story. Um so, like for me, one of my favorites was when we had Justine on. Yeah. As and uh she was talking about tattoos, and I was just very excited because I obviously have a lot of tattoos. And kind of as we like to say it, it pulled in, it left enough room for the listener to put themselves in there to think more about themselves and their life experience. Um but then, like, all of the episodes were all so good and bought so much different wisdom.

SPEAKER_04 2:14

Yeah, you know, and I'm thinking of that episode with Justine and um her talking about how when as kids they would go to school, she would bring these photos of them sort of going into these little carcasses of how kids would be mortified. So I was talking to my husband about that story. And one of my favorite moments is when the story continues on Beyond the Conversation. And um, part two of her story was when we shared it online. Someone chimed in and talked about bringing um jam to school that was made from um, why am I thinking, daffodils and no, it it was dandelion salad, I think. Yeah dandelions. And and my husband and I have had this conversation lots about, you know, what are weeds? Come on, they're they're kind of pretty. Agreed. And uh and this person talked about dandelion jam or dandelion tea. And so it sparked this conversation between my husband and I about what like what are really weeds and why do we think that that's the case? So I love when conversations sort of continue on through our lives, and to me, that's good storytelling where lots of room to read with that story.

SPEAKER_02 3:38

Yeah, that is a good one. And I'm thinking of um specifically as we're as we're recording this, yeah, there's there's a lot of uh tension in the city, I think. And I'm thinking a lot of um Jamil's podcast. Yeah. And I've been pulling in a lot of those words and um just great like lines, I guess, or like things that he said that I find myself using when I'm talking to people about what's happening in the city too.

SPEAKER_05 4:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:13

And yeah, it helped definitely helped me rethink a lot about. I think the line I'm thinking of is how um people who are maybe unhoused or whatnot, they're all their own community and we don't think about it like that. And everyone knows one another kind of, and it just made me like which is what stories and things should do, is it it just made me shift the way I like think about things. Yeah, if I see someone begging on the street, I'm curious about where they feel they belong still to the city or to people around them, or those kinds of things. So it brought some new thoughts to my mind, which is cool.

SPEAKER_04 5:06

Yeah, a new language, and that's a good um, that's a really good reflection. I appreciate that a lot. It's that was one of the other things from Jamil's um podcast that really stuck with me as well, thinking about community, because when we when we see someone, we assume that they don't belong anywhere. Or, and that's sort of the nature of how how trauma works, how stigma works, and there's this assumption that those who are stigmatized or those who are marginalized are no longer a part of our society. And it's almost like this push-pull tension. If I've experienced trauma, I'm trying to isolate myself, and also my community is isolating me or shunning me. Worst case scenario. I really loved that invitation to see people as community and not just like project your own thoughts on seeing them as community. No, this is a very tight knit community.

SPEAKER_01 6:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:08

And how do we help people understand and see that? Was like that was a really beautiful invitation.

SPEAKER_02 6:18

Yeah, and not it helped think of like I don't know if this is the correct word, but like reform in a different way too, where it's like we're not just trying to like pluck people out of where they we feel they shouldn't be.

SPEAKER_05 6:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:36

Or um give them something that they aren't ready to receive, we're yeah, we're supporting with what they want and their journey and at their own pace and that kind of thing too, which is really just a kind of a trauma-informed angle.

SPEAKER_04 6:59

It really is. And we, you know, we as as someone who has um worked with and had family members who wrestled with addictions, it's it's a really humbling reminder that if you're not struggling with something, you assume you assume that, well, why would this person not want care? Not why would they not want to get better and so on? You have to take a step back and give people the room to breathe. You have to give people and I say give because it's a you know, as a family member, it requires a lot of patience to say, I am going to step back and not just like jump into save and help and so on. And and if when we care about someone, that is also a very strong pull and to want to support. And yet there's a bit of a balance to strike in that conversation, which I think is important to remember.

SPEAKER_02 8:05

And nothing is a quick fix. No, like we far too easily want everything to just be solved, and we want to be like, okay, tie it up with a bow, move on.

SPEAKER_05 8:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:16

But humans don't work like that. No, we we should know that by now. We should. Yeah, we don't. And like nothing will ever be fully tidy. And which is what we talk a lot about that endings of stories or stories in general are not always tidy endings. But also like solutions are not always tidy or quick. Sometimes they're like, You gotta play the long game. You gotta play the long game, which is not fun, but it's it's the way it works.

SPEAKER_04 8:49

And you know, and that was something that came, that theme emerged so strongly in Aisha's conversation, right? And like and wrestling with complexity and wrestling with how do you bring stories to life in a manner that is responsible, that also is respectful, and at the heart honors the fact that every but everyone has the right to dignity and the right for their story to be heard. And that doesn't mean that you, as a listener, you come to a very staunch conclusion about a story. It just means you've introduced more complexity into the conversation. Aisha touched on that so well.

SPEAKER_02 9:36

Yeah, and I mean, especially in in like her museum, but in all places and spaces we hear stories and experience stories, they're so nuanced. One one example that's really cool, actually, that I um I've been to the aviation museum here in Pinbag a couple times, but recently I was there, and they have a story where this plane crashed in, I guess, the Arctic up here in Canada. And side by side on the wall, they have one version of the story that was written by uh the plane pilot? Pilot. I was like the plane driver. And it's I guess his account in his biography of the plane crash and how he was rescued by um indigenous people of North. And then beside it is the indigenous leader's story of rescuing this plane crash pilot. I'm also a driver again. And when you read both stories, they have some similar facts, but they're also so different. And they also have such different language. Like um, it's just a very interesting. And I know the aviation museum here is newer, so they have like similar to the human rights museum, they have different, I don't know, approaches to telling stories that are more responsible now.

SPEAKER_05 11:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:13

As compared to when you go to maybe an older museum and it's a little bit more dated. Yeah. Less, less nuance approach. Yeah. But it was very interesting. And then I was like reading it, and I'm like, whose is true? Yeah. Or like which one is is more accurate? And I guess that's just the beauty of stories, is that you just you both are accurate.

SPEAKER_04 11:36

You're both accurate. You know, that's a great um, I love that reflection. It makes me think of um uh, you know, over the last few days, I shared my perspectives on the opening of the NACPA exhibit in Winnipeg. And um it's it's invited a lot of reflection and thinking about what it means to bear witness and what it means, what it means to have the space to tell stories. And and I'm coming at it from a storyteller's perspective of, you know, what does what does it mean to hold complexity together? And um the conversations of online, you know, on the one hand, have been incredibly charged. Um, it's a you know, it's a very prickly conversation for folks. And also, I've really appreciated the nuanced discussions where they emerge, which is very challenging in an online space, but I've really appreciated the conversations around facts and context and the distinction between those. And facts can be debatable, but context can also be debatable. And often the responsibility of the museum that I see it is to be able to hold that level of complexity. And I think that, oh, that becomes so challenging. And so when I think about, you know, two stories told side by side at this aviation museum, it's our our default pull is well, which one is true? And I can totally see myself having that same question. And then it would take like a lot of patience and self-restraint to go, what would it look like for me to hold both of these as accurate and both of these carrying their perspective and their context? I don't have to decide.

SPEAKER_01 13:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:38

And to me that came out really loud in this season that was how important both facts and context is for any story.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:50

I'm I think like experiencing or trying to experience other people's sides because we go through life and we we experience our own way we move about the world, but it is very hard to realize what someone else is experiencing.

SPEAKER_05 14:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:19

And I like that this season challenged that in a lot of different ways too.

SPEAKER_05 14:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:24

Brought a lot of different perspectives and stories, and I think ways we tell stories, like I'm thinking of Donovan's episode. Um, specifically about the way like cities tell stories in in the way that we move about a city. And I'm not a planner. No, definitely not. But I it made me think about the city, and then was talking to someone who had come from, I think, Ottawa last week, and the hearing the way they moved about our city or what they wanted to like visit here or see, or um, their experience. It's kind of interesting, especially like as I've basically been born and raised here. Right. Until you're removed from it, then you don't really think yeah, that much about like what story your your city tells, or your space, or your even your neighborhood.

SPEAKER_04 15:25

Yeah. That's a really interesting. I get that reflection. I'm thinking of, you know, one of the things that Donovan said that stayed with me was similarly, he said, you know, I'm I've been born and raised here, and I'd be curious. And he asked me about my reflection on, you know, I think we were talking about belonging or something. And it it occurred to me that when when we come from a place, we have a better aligned spot to that place. And and especially, you know, if I think of my homeland and how protective, how sacred it feels that, you know, that's my place, that's where I come from. When I hear someone critiquing it, it it stings. And then also I've had to learn over time that that critique is a very healthy place to be because that's how my city will do better. And that's what I've been looking for a lot lately in conversations is are we willing to accept or not necessarily accept, at least listen to the critique of our homes, of our places, of our lands, of our systems, of our ways of being. And then if we're willing to listen to that, what do we then do with that? And I think when we come from contested histories, contested backgrounds, contested lands, oh, that's such a prickly place to be. And I really think that's where like a good place to start.

SPEAKER_02 17:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:06

Is to say we're gonna have some difficult conversations about our city. Yeah. What does that look like? Are you are you ready to listen? Sort of similar to the conversation with Jamil about people meeting people where they're at, same thing when it comes to a city. Are we willing to just listen to their critique without jumping to here's 10 ways that I'm gonna defend myself?

SPEAKER_02 17:31

Yeah. Or yeah, try to prove your point.

SPEAKER_05 17:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:36

Like, I feel so often when we're talking with people who have different mindsets as we're we're going about it, trying to convince the other. And then it's like, we're not convincing each other. Like we're made up on our mind. Yeah. Like we're not, if if you believe one side and I believe one side and we're we're having a conversation about it, I feel like we approach it trying to prove our point and trying to like get the other person a shift.

SPEAKER_05 18:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:08

And we're just not helpful.

SPEAKER_04 18:12

No, and I'm not actually sure what it accomplishes. And I it's just like getting aggression or anything. I know. It's like we need to fight. But also, you know, I can think of a time where that was really important to me. Yeah. You know, and that there was something that Donovan and I touched on in our podcast as well, where he said I was slow to apologize. Yeah. I'm gonna be thinking about this for a long time. And I and I have been thinking about it, you know, as a mature adult. I've been thinking about it. So, but what was what was really an important takeaway from that conversation was we do feel the need to be right. And no one wants to be wrong. Yeah, and also though, what's the big deal? And I say that with care. Yeah, yeah. What's the big deal if we're wrong? Right? Like, we we have we love watching content from people who talk about failure in a healthy way. We're like, girl, I love your story that you failed and you knew how to get up and you did it. Guess how failure happens? It's because in the moment what you did was the wrong thing to do, or the right whatever, right? It was rupture, it was conflict. We love stories of people who emerge from the other side. Who emerge on the other side, yeah. Yet when we're faced with like the wrong right thing, we're like, oh, I need to prove that I'm not wrong here. Yeah. And I'm so curious, like how we go beyond that.

SPEAKER_02 19:52

Yeah, that's a good way of looking at it. I I feel like a lot of circles that I walk in have very similar belief systems to what I do. So it's it's different when I experience sure, at least like a majority of the time. Like, obviously, people have different beliefs, it's not all one thing. But specifically last night, I went to go visit my grandmother, who's a good Christian woman.

SPEAKER_04 20:18

We love grandma.

SPEAKER_02 20:19

Yeah, we do. Like, I respect my grandma so much, and she is the most wonderful human, but we ended up getting in a little bit of a charged conversation. And I was just re usually, I would just okay, grandma.

SPEAKER_05 20:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:38

And then last night I just was feeling like I was like, I don't want to back down. I know I'm not gonna change your mind. Yeah, but I want to challenge her a little bit and expand the way she and we ended up having a good conversation about a lot of different charge topics. It was I had to go home and scream into a pillow after it was charged. But the conversation with ended with my grandma getting defensive, saying, I'm not prejudiced. Like I don't think badly of others. And I said, I don't think that you do, grandma. I know that we hold the same values and we both value love and family and respect and all of this, but we experience the world in two very different ways. We are very different age groups, we come from very different backgrounds. Like, I'm in the workforce, you're not. Like all of these different things that match up to completely different experiences. And she was like, Yeah, that is right. That is a good way of looking at it. And I was like, Yeah, like you wouldn't be able to step in my shoes with your beliefs necessarily and still maintain your beliefs because we walk such different lines and different worlds. And She was like, Yeah, that is a good way of thinking about it. And and we do hold the same values. And I'm like, I think all humans kind of hold the same values. Right. Like they'll change slightly, but they're all a little bit different. So I left the conversation feeling charged.

SPEAKER_05 22:15

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:16

But like good because sure we had a very aggressive conversation. But we also were like, hey, we're not gonna convince each other, but we agree that we have different beliefs and different thoughts, and that's okay.

SPEAKER_05 22:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:33

And that we can't fully understand the other because we'll never be the other person, but we can try.

SPEAKER_04 22:39

Yeah. I can I just say how much I love that because I've been talking a lot lately about staying with the discomfort of conflict. And oftentimes, especially when it comes to family, like my Miyaji would always say the hardest conversations are the conversations within our own courtyards.

SPEAKER_05 23:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:00

And conflict within our home, within our workplace, within our own community is so much harder to wrestle with because there's a lot at stake. And family is sort of like this this closest version of us. And we don't pick our family, so it's even harder yet to, you know, maintain those relationships. But we have to be able to say with the discomfort. I grew up in a family where conflict was it was loud. It was always loud. Yeah. So if you didn't agree with someone, it was you you talked about it, you had this like volatile moment. And I call it volatile just because I don't have any other language for it right now. But it was, it was clear when someone was upset. Yeah. And we often joke that our kids are born with a scowl on their face because they're braced for conflict. And it's so important to be able to wade through that conversation. And yes, it leaves you charged, but when else would grandma ever hear that from you, right? Because yeah, like our prof as you get older, I think maybe your patience diminishes and you don't want to hear it.

SPEAKER_02 24:16

But it's important to stay with it. How often do you have the chance to speak to someone who like just is completely, utterly different than you? And so you're in the confines of a room because your family and whatever.

SPEAKER_04 24:30

Like it's a great place to practice conflict readiness skills. Yeah, because they're still gonna show up at Thanksgiving.

SPEAKER_02 24:36

Yeah. Like fat, like it is a good place because it's like sure there there's conflict or it's uncomfortable. And I mean, maybe people walk away mad, or maybe there's and this is an oversimplification, obviously, of of family conflict. But I mean, it is a good place to test things out because they they know you. And I feel like it gives you almost a little bit more growth too, because it's your family. They've known all versions of you. Yeah. So it's true, it gives you a chance to almost like break that vision a little bit and try something out. And then if it doesn't work, you're like, oh, I'll just be saying whole court.

SPEAKER_04 25:16

Also, I'll just say I don't think my family remotely knows all versions of me. You don't need to know anything. No. No, we we keep that. Yeah, we keep that behind. So one of the other conversations that is um is really like it has lives retin-free in my brain here is the conversation we have with Desiree. Oh, yeah. And I mean, I love listening to Desiree. She just has this like beautiful, beautiful presence to her. But I loved how she talked about memorialization beyond just grief. And it's particularly potent because I've I've had a couple of family losses in the last uh last couple of weeks in my own family. And, you know, I went through this wave of grief and reflecting on how important it was to mark grief, and yet I also felt light and celebratory about it, and I was observing myself, sort of this out-of-body experience, and I was observing myself holding those two things together.

SPEAKER_02 26:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:24

And that was so special about the conversation with Desiree.

SPEAKER_02 26:28

I loved that conversation too. I also just like love Des so much. Like her, I feel like everyone we have on the podcast, their voice is just incredible. Uh nobody has bad recording voices, like just so calming. But yeah, I like the way Des was also reimagining, yeah, similar to what you were saying, where it's it's almost holding both truths, and it's like uh reimagining spaces as holding both at the same time. Specifically thinking of like parks and and things, but a lot of places have had a lot of bad happen in them. And it depends who you are. I mean, maybe it's not um worldwide or city widespread. Maybe you individually just had something bad happen in a place, a person pass or a traumatic experience, but it also doesn't mean that place needs to be marked forever with darkness, I guess.

SPEAKER_04 27:38

Well, and it's it speaks to me to a broader human experience, which is we assume in society that certain incidents or certain occurrences have to be experienced a certain way. And that's what I loved about the conversation with Des was it's like that's not true. Because when you're when you're thinking about a challenging time, we we some we go through these waves of, you know, I'm really sad about it, now I'm angry about it, now I'm gonna get sassy about it, and now it's gonna go into this like dark humor phase, right? And we and I think we've gotten to a place as society where we've started accepting that that is that is normal, yeah. Phases of how we wrestle with traumatic experiences or difficult experiences. I loved the manifestation of that in our physical environment. That if that's the human experience, how do we bring that human experience into our cities by also honoring that a place can hold multiple truths?

SPEAKER_02 28:48

Yeah, like I'm thinking of when she was talking about the Alexander Docks project and how they wanted to revitalize the space so that it didn't necessarily feel I don't know what the word is, like dark. Yeah. But that they also wanted to, they wanted to memorialize what has happened there, the tragic history and past. But they also wanted to make it a place where people can move forward. They could sit and have coffee together or the kids can play at the park or those kinds of things. And yeah, just just reflecting on able to experience like grief and joy at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 29:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:33

And how like just because you're grieving doesn't mean you can't also be laughing. Be laughing. Yeah. Like uh that's this is what our July newsletter is about. If you're subscribed.

SPEAKER_01 29:46

And it's well done. Well done.

SPEAKER_02 29:49

But it's about how even in wartime, there's still weddings. Yeah. Like even in um like tragic, tragic situations or backgrounds or anything, there's still laughter. There's still laughter.

unknown 30:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:08

Like they're all of this thing, all of these complexities can all exist at once. And it doesn't mean that it's not still sad. Yeah. Or it's still heavy or dark, but it doesn't help anybody, I feel, to just sit in that fully. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:26

And I think that to me is when we connect it to, you know, how cities tell that other story and tell talk about their history. It's that bringing that human experience into physical environments and challenging because it requires lots of conversations, but those conversations can have a very powerful healing component to them. Because in order to design a place that carries the many complexities, you have to be able to have difficult conversations about that place. Yeah. And what it means to different people, what it means to going back to your aviation museum, what it means to tell those stories side by side in a manner that honors both, both of those stories.

SPEAKER_02 31:14

Yeah. Even thinking of like all of the construction that's happening in downtown right now in Winnipeg, where um I know that I think it's the Southern Chiefs organization is turning the Hudson's Bay Company building into this like really cool space that I'm very excited for. Same with Portage Place, and a lot of places downtown are just being like revamped. And they're taking a little bit of ownership of the the history. Yeah. And yeah, shifting the narrative from maybe something that has been bad or something that's been um messy.

SPEAKER_05 31:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:58

And still holding that. They're still taking the building. Yeah. And its confines. But they're shifting what's happening there and almost like re-rejigging the story of that building or of that space too.

SPEAKER_04 32:15

I love the, you know, what that makes me think of is how important it is to I can't believe I'm saying this. Never give up on a place. Yeah. There's a flood of emotions that just came up right now. Yeah. But it was like it because when we've had a challenging experience with a place, a challenging relation, I always talk about my complicated relationship with the city and what it means to belong, and how it's like, oh, I've constantly felt because of the racism and Islamophobia that the city keeps pushing me away. And I'm like, no, I have to really wrestle with that. And I've gone through these periods where I've essentially given up and said, you know what? It is what it is. And then comes a period of like, how dare you decide? And this is my conversation with the city. How dare you decide whether or not I belong? Of course I belong. Yeah. And you don't get to tell me that I don't belong. And it's been really neat, like, you know, reflecting on some of the other guests. We had our uh mayor, Scott Gillingham, on the on the podcast. Very exciting. And asking him about what does it mean to create belonging in the city.

SPEAKER_02 33:35

I am just remembering when he was so excited about just everything that happens in the city. Yeah. Like from your perspective, like what you have just said, where sometimes you almost take like a backseat to the city where you're just like, I'm here.

SPEAKER_05 33:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:57

Okay, sure. But then sometimes you're almost like taking a unoffensive kind of position. Where you're like, no, no, you don't get to push me away. I'm gonna make spaces and things like that. And it's interesting to see all different kinds of people experience that and and try to move the dial forward, but also again, it's it's holding a lot of tension and things like that too.

SPEAKER_04 34:33

Like well, to me, that was that spoke about ownership. Yeah. And ownership can be a bit of a loaded word. And what I mean by ownership in this context is you know, taking ownership of your reclaiming your agency over your life, over your circumstances, over the systems, over the conversations that you're able to have. And I appreciated, you know, in the conversation with uh with Scott, it was talking about what does it look like for people to build a city? And he kept referring to like it's a bit of a collective responsibility box, right? And I remember asking him, well, but what's the city gonna do? Yeah. And he sort of emphasized the collective responsibility. And that conversation stayed with me about what do we do as citizens? Yeah. What is the responsibility that we carry? And that ties to one of the questions that, or one of the reflections in the conversation with Aisha Khan, where we touched on what is the visitor's responsibility. And same with the conversation with Desiree about what is the responsibility of the person who comes to the Alexander docks to engage, to reflect, so that we're not just in this like one-sided consumerism-obsessed mindset of like, I'm gonna sit here passively and hey world, make me feel the belonging and give me what I need to feel belonging, but also engaging with it a little bit more actively.

SPEAKER_02 36:12

Yeah, I think that's a good way of looking at things, like holding both truths for sure where we have to make spaces for ourselves, yeah, but also for each other, and also like it gets exhausting. I think of like what you you talk about it quite frequently, about how um the responsibility to educate people specifically in in your intersectionality is often falls on you. Yeah, and it's a it's a heavy burden. And but at the same time, it's also kind of and I I'm speaking for you a little bit here just because we've said it, but like it's it's a heavy burden, but it's also kind of a cruel burden from someone. Yeah. Like as someone who gets to like walk the road with you quite often, right? It's very like I love learning anything that you have to teach me, but at the same don't cry, don't do it. Try not to clean No emotions are loud on this podcast. But at the same time, as someone who doesn't necessarily know, like there's a lot of questions I have about the world. But at the same time, that's also my responsibility to do it myself. Yeah. Like it's it's kind of both, and it's it's challenging to figure out what is your place. Like, like you just said, it's hard to figure out almost what is your responsibility to do the work yourself, and what is maybe okay to lean on community, to lean on each other, lean on leaders and and people of other communities to educate or uplift.

SPEAKER_04 38:16

Oh, that's a beautiful. Oh, Courtney, as you were talking, the visual in my head.

SPEAKER_02 38:22

Really? Where was it?

SPEAKER_04 38:23

Oh, so it's this visual of someone standing in the middle. Okay, holding as many threads as you possibly can in both of your hands and like have a little rapperoni situation um around you, but the the ability to hold those threads up is what keeps you afloat. And every now and then one thing pulls on in one direction. And when this pulls, you gotta like balance it somehow with something else. And I keep thinking of that as a responsibility.

SPEAKER_02 38:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:59

So it's not an easy answer. And yes, I hold I I remember asking this question actually years ago or a couple of years ago, um, uh, to uh Raymond, who was on our slash or last season. It was at one of his book launch, one of his books launches. Yes. I don't know if that's proper English. Um, and I asked him, I said it's exhausting to have this intersectionality and the responsibility to build belonging and uphold our identities. And his response was essentially, well, too bad. Yeah. But that is the responsibility. And in the moment, did not like that answer. Um, and later went on to reflect on it. And it's true. We, you know, how else do you use? There's a million ways that I can use my privilege, but how else do I use a privilege than to wrestle with these in a bit of a public way?

SPEAKER_02 39:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:00

To say what does what does it look like for me to push for belonging and what does it look like for the city, our community, our world to build that belonging for all those intersectionalities?

SPEAKER_02 40:12

Well, I'm like fortunately, unfortunately, it makes like it's more accessible for other people to then experience all those thoughts and dichotomies and things you hold at once. Like I'm thinking of two instances. One was you were recently on a panel with um Dean, I don't know, last name. Uh, and it was about um indigenous and yes, yes, yes. Uh tomorrow. Yes. And oh Dean. They had just said this amazing quote that I have been just holding so close, and it was um, I'm paraphrasing here, but it's like being an ally is sometimes taking the stones. Yeah. And just made me think a lot about it. It was specifically, I think, said in more of like a queer context, but it really works with anything where it's like as someone who um like as a white person working with you, sometimes it means that like I'm gonna stand in front of you and take those stones that are being thrown at you, and not in like a savior way, but just in a way that lets you be able to like just take a breath. Take a breath. So then you can keep fighting all the other fights that you're experiencing, and like doing that for any community in any space. That's really just being a good ally for anything. Absolutely. And in recently, I came way more out as being queer, like out loud. And I've been feeling that a lot similarly, where like I was at Sewing class, and this woman was just asking me question after question about just the ramus, like queer questions. Yeah. And I was like, Google exists. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I'm trying to finish my shirt here. Like, we don't like I'm not Google, but at the same time, I was like, this is probably her only like opportunity outside her like life to talk with someone who is out loud about it and excited and whatnot, and to be able to just like gain access and ask questions. And then it's almost like her entry point into maybe being a better ally. Yeah. Yeah. So it was like I went home and I was exhausted. I was like, holy shit, good thing I know all these questions, like yeah, answers. But at the same time, I was, I felt really like proud of being able to like uplift a little bit like that. Yeah. So it makes sense, like the the complexity again. Yeah. Like you go home and you have a good sleep, and yeah, but you wrestle with it where you're like, why is it on me? Yeah. And yeah.

SPEAKER_04 42:58

I think it's that, it's that accepting that this is part of the work.

SPEAKER_02 43:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:03

So part of the work is to find your to bring it back to something that you said earlier. Part of the work is to find your own voice.

SPEAKER_02 43:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:10

And to also know that others can do that for you. And both of those things can be true at all times. And I'm reminded of the conversation. Oh, the like these were such soul-feeling conversations with Urit and Donna. Um, and the story that um um Rabbi had shared about the daughter filling the room with light. Yeah. And what it asks for us today. And I loved what she said about we gotta have it was surprising at first. She said we need less passion, less heart to heart, and more soul to soul. And I all I could think of in the moment was I feel like all our problems would go away if we could have more soul to. Soul-to-soul conversations because even in the conversations that you're talking about, you know, whether it's about being queer, whether it's about carrying the intersectionality of like, you know, being a Muslim leader, woman of color, it's it's how do you how can you connect with someone at a level where you just kind of know that this is okay, that you're complex, I'm complex, we're all complex, and we're we're we'll be just fine, we'll survive.

SPEAKER_02 44:30

Yeah. And I'm curious if then it's almost like when you're talking to someone, you can usually almost like read through the lines of what they're what they're wanting. Yeah. Like if you're soul, like I'm curious then if it's like you're so like hearts feel too passionate. People people get amped. Yeah. Like going to what Donna said. Yeah. Like heart to heart, love it. We love love. Yeah. But it's almost like too passionate. Yeah. But like souls just connect on like maybe a more grounded level.

SPEAKER_04 45:09

I was gonna say more chilled. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:10

Grounded is better. It just feels like more. I'm thinking of like a river kind of flowing together. But when you're connecting with somebody and maybe they're leaning on you to be a leader or setting your own path, or even when you're connecting with your own soul, I maybe you can tell it's ulterior motive almost. Like you can kind of get the vibe of someone's asking questions and or trying to guide you in a wrong way.

SPEAKER_04 45:47

Well, and you know, to me that almost speaks to the importance of knowing yourself. Yeah. And I, you know, another incredible guest we had was Urit. And I remember the moment that I met her at the Women Wage Peace event. And it was sort of like this instant, like that that human radiates beauty. Yeah. And just like a really, really grounded person. And I would, if if there's language for it, I would describe it as a soul-to-soul connection.

SPEAKER_02 46:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:24

And one of the things that her and I ended up talking about, um, and this wasn't on the podcast, this was before. Okay. This is why we brought her on the podcast, was how important it is to also know our own voice. Right? And because if we don't know our own voice, we don't know, we don't necessarily know the words that are emerging from us or where they're coming from.

SPEAKER_02 46:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:48

So that self-work becomes really important. And I know I've talked a lot about our own responsibility when it comes to belonging. I think we carry so much responsibility of the self to care for the self, to better understand the voice of the self, and to bring that out into the world can be such a beautiful medicine for the world.

SPEAKER_02 47:13

Yeah, I love that reflection. It m it when you were speaking, it made me think of all of our uh Latchie workshops that we've been having. Um, and they're very much, I would say they're very much self-explorations of belonging. They're not necessarily like they're they're in a room of a bunch of people. Yeah. And we all get to maybe share in other people's reflections. Yeah. But they're more projects on your own experience with belonging.

SPEAKER_05 47:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:49

And I feel like in order to make spaces where people belong or can be themselves or are safe or anything like that, you really have to know yourself first. Like you were saying, to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_05 48:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:07

And I don't I don't feel like it's like that quote like you have to love yourself to love others. I don't like struggle with that. Yeah. I'm like, I don't mean it makes sense to me, but also, yeah. Relationships are messy, and even the relationship with yourself is messy, and that's okay. But in order to make someone else feel like they belong or to create a space of belonging for others, I feel like you need to experience what you feel like belonging or not belonging is. Cause then it almost gives you like the starting and stopping point too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 48:45

Well, and it's we're all, you know, at some level, we're all on our own unique, or we are on our unique journey, but understanding ourselves and the world around us. And perhaps at some point we stop asking that question because we think we know the answer.

SPEAKER_02 49:04

We're like, oh, I'm solid. I'm healed. Whatever.

SPEAKER_04 49:06

Oof, good luck. If you are healed, I'm just better than everybody. If you are healing, please drop me a message because I would love to know what actually heals you. Yeah. What gives you the confidence? I mean, maybe it is you're just projecting healing into the world. So you're feeling until you make it anyway. Honestly, yeah, maybe that works for you. Yeah. And, you know, part of the one of the last reflections I want to um do here on this particular episode is about how we meandered, and that's the only word that comes to mind. How we meandered from what belonging means, how cities tell their story. We had these incredible mural artists. We had Justine, we had Rachel, um, and we got to know their stories of how they came to be. And one of the things that really stayed with me on that meandering theme was talking to Rachel.

SPEAKER_02 50:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 50:02

And how we like to present this very polished version of our success. Yeah. Whatever success means to you. And it's like, well, I always imagined I would be a planner, and then this I did not imagine I'd be a planner. I didn't even know that thing existed. But we always imagine telling a certain tight story of how we came to be. I think that's a mistake.

SPEAKER_02 50:30

Yeah. Because it's like the elevator pitch of yourself.

SPEAKER_04 50:33

Yeah. And what is truly beautiful about the human experience is how meandering it is, how complex it is. And we really heard that in Rachel's journey of how she became this incredible mural artist that she is.

SPEAKER_02 50:48

Yeah, like she never once was like, Yes, I want to do murals. Yeah. Or this is what I feel I need to be doing. It kind of just happened. Yeah. And then she was like, oh, this is the right place doing this. Yeah. And yeah, eventually got there. And I feel like most of our guests had journs like that. Um, they all kind of similar to similar to you, like, you didn't plan to be a planner. Yeah. Like, I didn't plan to be sitting here today. But he's a director of partnerships. Yeah, exactly. I was getting ready getting ready this morning, and my partner's like, oh, like, why do we look so nice? I'm like, oh, I'm recording today. It's like, oh, like who's the guest? I'm like, me.

SPEAKER_01 51:40

Oh, me and Sylvia.

SPEAKER_02 51:42

And he's like, oh, really? Yeah. It's a good time. But like, we didn't plan to be here necessarily. We just who meandered and we got here, and that's that's the story. It's not, oh, I was born and now I work for Kahani. Yeah. It's it was a lot that's there's a lot, way too much for one episode. Yeah. But it's it's it is a journey. And I feel like that's really the beauty of what we're trying to tell here to and tell the season about the the city. The city is not just, oh, Winnipeg was formed, or here we are, any city. It's not just, oh, it was created and now we're a beautiful, happy place in the best city in the world, maybe in like Finland, but not here. But it's it's the journey. There's history books upon history books telling journeys of place and space and people. And we all have our own history books.

SPEAKER_04 52:50

Uh and I think that is the work. Yeah. And if I think about, you know, Gahani and what does it mean to honor a story? To me, it's about honoring the journey.

SPEAKER_02 53:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 53:04

And to know that it's never tidy. Gosh, it's never tidy. I used to worry so much about the failures in life. Not in a, you know, how am I gonna survive this? I survive them, but more the shame, the embarrassment, the clunk that comes from making mistakes. No one likes feeling icky. No, and my goodness, every mistake comes with such ickiness. But that is the story. That is the story of how we become and we're constantly on that journey. And how beautiful, and my goodness, what a relief it would be if we could just take a moment, tell ourselves that it was a beautiful journey.

SPEAKER_02 53:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 53:51

It hurt like hell. It was really shitty at times. Hopefully, we can crack jokes about it after. Absolutely. Throw some dark humor in there. Yes. And be like, you know what? That that was a journey. And that is the story of our city.

SPEAKER_02 54:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 54:05

That is the story of our country. That is the story of this world. That's the story of who we are as people.

SPEAKER_02 54:11

Of each person, of communities, of everything. Let's just keep telling stories. Yeah. Specifically, maybe between the threads. The threads.