SPEAKER_04 0:08

Welcome to Between the Threads, a podcast exploring the threads that connect us: story, memory, identity, and meaning. And how they weave the fabric of peace in our lives and communities. Between the Threads is a joint initiative between Kahani and Narratives. Kahani is a nonprofit organization that amplifies storytelling for peace building. And Narratives is an award-winning planning and design firm based in Winnipeg, Canada.

SPEAKER_05 0:37

Thank you so much for making time for us today. The first thing I would love to hear from you is how did your journey begin in poetry?

SPEAKER_00 0:49

With emotions before words. Where I guess I must have been 13 or 14 and was starting to really develop these emotions now, entering into well, you know, well into puberty and uh just entering high school, coming from uh, you know, my smaller elementary school community into a bigger world, a more mature space. And uh had lots of feelings and lots of questions and things. And so I had these emotions and these ideas, and I needed uh a method or a way to make sense of them. So I had to find words and phrases uh to apply to that. And I guess that's how it started. So I think that's kind of still true. And that's that's sort of the main uh thrust is is figuring things out, taking something intangible, making it seem tangible, at least uh to translate to someone else's mind, where they I can describe something and they can then visualize it in their brain or their emotional uh landscape inside.

SPEAKER_05 2:06

Yeah. So how much of I often think about this when I've recently only recently started sharing a lot of my own writing from very long time ago.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

Oh, good for you.

SPEAKER_05 2:21

Oh, thank you. And it takes a lot of courage to be able to do that. So I'm curious, what was the first time, if you remember, that you decided to share your work with the world?

SPEAKER_00 2:33

Yeah, it uh it was in baby steps. Okay. You sort of imagine uh the first step being sharing with a friend or a family member just one-on-one. Yeah. And I guess that probably happened on a couple occasions. Um, or in class, you know, read your poem in front of the class. Um, I was lucky to get encouragement from my teachers. And so I guess I I sort of leaned towards the arts in high school. So I sort of felt that that was my, I don't know if it was a calling at the time, but I was definitely drawn to it. And I knew that my grades were better in that class, those classes uh than others. So I sort of already had kind of like a comfort level with language, with stories, with expressing myself, because finally I I could. There was an outlet for it, right?

SPEAKER_05 3:29

I have a language for it now.

SPEAKER_00 3:31

Right. Um, but I remember um my English teacher, I guess it was grade 10, Mrs. Ides.

SPEAKER_01 3:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:41

Uh she supported me um by starting a creative writing club at lunchtime.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

Oh, cool.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

Once a week, kind of thing. And there was one member that was me. Um there was occasionally someone that came in and out, but but the one person that came every week was me. And so basically she would have her lunch and um maybe you know, check some messages and green some papers and sort of listen to me talk about what I was writing and working on, and and would give me feedback. And she helped to organize kind of like a coffee house at the high school where um uh my parents came and a couple of my friends, and I think uh I think I might have read a couple poems, but I definitely played a couple songs on the guitar very poorly, very poorly couldn't sing.

SPEAKER_05 4:39

We all have to start somewhere.

SPEAKER_00 4:40

Exactly, exactly. And and I remember that I that was it. I wanted to start. You know what I mean? I I really wanted to say that I had done it, pass or fail, whatever, it didn't matter, but just to do it. And so my parents humored me. Um, my mom was very supportive, and oh, there's my boy, look at him go. And my dad was like, all right, you know, keep that's a good mom and dad expression. Yes. Yeah. Uh my my dad, well, he showed up, but he was more like, keep practicing.

SPEAKER_01 5:13

Yeah, it's not quite good enough just yet.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

Yeah, yeah. So so I uh those are the two kind of voices that were always um acting on my own ego, I guess. So uh, you know, which is realistic. You want the constructive criticism and and uh to keep going at the same time.

SPEAKER_05 5:31

Yeah. Oh, thank you for sharing that. Uh it reminded me of all the times in school when I would write and share my work in class, or I used to sing and that used to feel great. And then um your story brought me back to my English teacher, Ms. Fatma Jodhri. And I actually recently, when I was going, I when I went back home, I had a chance to go see her, and she was still in school. Uh, she's one of the very few teachers now still um left in school. And it was it was fascinating because in my mind, she has had such a big influence on my writing journey that she was like this big person. And I remember when I recently, when I saw her, she's this tiny, tiny little woman.

SPEAKER_00 6:24

My teacher was too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 6:26

And I just thought, you're so tiny. And I said that to her. And I said, you know, in my mind, you've always been this big, big personality. So it was just like this really beautiful poetic moment of realizing that we have we have these people in our lives who actually do support us so much on our writing journey and making sense of the world. And in a way, really what they're doing is helping us understand ourselves as we as we move on in life.

SPEAKER_00 6:53

Yeah, they get it.

SPEAKER_05 6:54

They get it. They get it.

SPEAKER_00 6:56

Before we get it, they get it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 6:58

Now I would love to. So actually, yeah, I'll ask you this. So if you could go back to that teacher and be in conversation with her, what what what would that look like? What would you ask?

SPEAKER_00 7:12

Uh I'd definitely come in with a fair bit of gratitude, absolutely. Um and I'd want to I'd want to show her what I've done with it. It's like look at this, and I look at these things, and I'm working on this, but I'm not too sure about it. And you know, say, oh she'll say, oh, you'll figure it out, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah. And um, yeah, just uh I I think now that she's given me that, I'd I'd be more interested in learning about her.

unknown 7:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

Uh, you know, what are her stories? Um because I I was needing so much attention back then that I couldn't uh I wasn't present enough to to have that relationship. Though I I'm sure that you know, we discussed like, are you married? What's your family life like kind of thing? Um but now, you know, I'm I'm grown up too, so I can I can see her as that and that and hold hold the uh the inspiration and the the motivation that I have without being so desperate and need me for that.

SPEAKER_05 8:17

Yeah, yeah, and maybe you know, like you said, ask her some questions. I come back with curiosity and and you know, if I reflect on my own journey, I've always been a very curious person, but as as I go along my own healing journey, I find myself getting more and more curious about the world. And I think somehow it opens up the space in us to be asking others more questions about them. And together we read those stories. Um so tell me, do you actually remember what your first piece of poetry looked like?

SPEAKER_00 8:58

Uh it was uh it was a song, at least at least in terms of like lyrics. It was it was before I knew how to play guitar, before I even owned a guitar. But I my my poetry at that age came from song lyrics, more more than books. Right? So that's that's how I accessed poetry and and uh classic rock, um the the alternative music of the time and and all all these different places from my parents' influence and just uh taking taking in the songs that they that they played.

SPEAKER_05 9:40

Right.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

That they would say, these are good songs, these songs mean something to me. And uh so this the the song itself that I wrote was was more of like a angry breakup song. You know, yeah, good good place to start when you're that age. It's a very popular topic. Yeah, yeah. Taylor Swift has made a whole career out of it, right? Yeah. So yeah, I had uh it was terrible. It was terrible.

SPEAKER_05 10:08

Hey, we we improve as we go. Yeah. How would you say your writing has changed over the years?

SPEAKER_01 10:15

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

Yeah, it's uh I made a note of how it has changed recently, but but going further back, it was definitely coming from a place of um exploring an emotional landscape. What am I feeling? What are these feelings? Um and back then, I didn't have the same support that I do now with mental health and um and that sort of thing. It was, you know, not really discussed in my family, though it it was present. Oh yes, it was present, but not really, not really put on the surface. So I think I I definitely needed some acknowledgement or or some support in what are these feelings, um and that I needed to feel them.

SPEAKER_05 11:13

Right.

SPEAKER_00 11:14

Right? Because when you when you're a teenager and when you have, you know, my my folks came from more working class backgrounds. My dad was an army brat and uh a hockey player. Um so anytime there was a bigger emotional expression, it was like, whoa, go over there and we don't do that, yeah. Yeah, so okay, so I'm over there, I'm in my room, and now what what do I do with this?

SPEAKER_01 11:46

Right.

SPEAKER_00 11:46

So so I had songs and I had books and poems and things to not like I guess try to try to navigate other people's emotional landscapes, and to like I say, develop a language that I could use to look at mine and express mine. Um so that carried well into university, I would say that that was a lot of um a lot of uh emotionally charged stuff. And I think now, let's say within the past ten years, it's been more socially oriented. Yeah, I've I think I've uh emerged from a space where I was trying to figure out where I belong and how I express myself and how I fit among other people who are expressing themselves and other things. And uh what what confidence or what permissions do I have as a as a as a uh straight white male to express myself. And there have been lots of opportunities to break barriers that I thought were in my way, but in in other spaces aren't. Like you're you're welcome to. It's up to you to explore that and go ahead. And so, you know, it's uh kind of scary sometimes because oh, I get this permission, so I'm gonna go all out.

SPEAKER_05 13:13

What do I do with that permission?

SPEAKER_00 13:15

Yeah, you know, it kind of you you turn it up to 11, and it's like, okay, well, we'll dial away. Um but now since I've come out into um the poetry community, I've had a degree in creative writing. Um I have some chops that I've developed over the years, yeah, so to speak, you know. And so now I'm I'm looking at the world and what's my place in it, and how do I contribute to it and how how does it affect me? Um and so these days I write a lot about uh like truth and reconciliation, and um and I write about um social structures, uh economic structures and inequalities and stuff like that. Um coming from trying to balance like an a uh a self-awareness of my privilege, but what am I what are my contributions? How can I lift people up? And so that that comes from and then feeds into my work with uh the Winnipeg Poetry Slam.

SPEAKER_01 14:24

Right.

SPEAKER_00 14:24

Where I'm the uh the co-director. So I get to I get to see see this work in action and then have it feed me. So it's so it's a it's a machine that keeps feeding itself.

SPEAKER_05 14:37

Sure. I love that. I love how you frame that and it makes me think of how you know I often wonder when I read someone else's work, like how much of this is them trying to have a conversation with the world and connecting with the world versus trying to help explain the world to others. And I don't think there's a clean answer there. It's all beautiful and murky and in between all of that. Um, so it's really fascinating to watch people's journey. And I think in a lot of ways, that's what poetry does is it's a language to make sense of your emotions, and also there's a journey of belonging in that.

SPEAKER_01 15:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 15:23

Um, what would you say, like if someone wanted to explore poetry and songwriting as a mode to try to find themselves in society, what could their starting point look like?

SPEAKER_00 15:38

Yeah, this this is a good question. Um it's actually one that I've I've explored myself. Um so I have a fair bit of experience uh mentoring and and running workshops and stuff like that. And in uh in every uh new group that I encounter, uh I sort of uh it's the first day is like an introduction to spoken word and poetry and and storytelling and stuff like that. So uh I I was, I guess you could say, gifted a writing exercise by uh a poet, uh I believe she was from Edmonton, Mary Pinkosky.

SPEAKER_01 16:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 16:17

She was she was doing very well in the uh in the slam community back back in the day. Um and there's a three-part exercise that uh that she uh in a workshop that she was running that I took.

SPEAKER_05 16:31

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 16:32

So passing on the knowledge, right? So it's three parts. Uh so there's three prompts. First is I am blank.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 16:41

Uh the second is I am from blank.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 16:45

And then with my voice, I will blank. So you start by yeah, you start by creating a list for each. Um, and these can be literal or figurative things, like I am a male, I am uh a poet, I am a brother, I'm a son, all these kinds of things. But but for the for the person who's taking this workshop, it would be about them.

SPEAKER_04 17:11

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 17:11

So they would write whatever thing comes to their head, and then they would start writing things that are actually meaningful to them.

SPEAKER_05 17:18

What a beautiful way to start with reflecting on your identity. Yeah and all the different things your identity can mean to you. Like I am a wife, I'm a daughter, I'm a I'm a Muslim, I'm a leader, I'm a person, I'm a human.

SPEAKER_00 17:31

Yes, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 17:33

Beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 17:33

And then within each of those words that come up in the list, it's it's like each word is a suitcase, and and you open it up, and there's all kinds of meaning, and each has a story to it. Um and so you you could keep going and going and going and have lists and lists. Um but then the next step is circle one or two from each uh prompt.

SPEAKER_05 17:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:59

And then go through each prompt and just write, right? What is what does that mean to you? And of course, in poetry we try to use figurative language like uh metaphors and similes and things like that. So how do how do you show your reader, your audience, what that is, what that means to you? And so so you get to say who you who you are, which is the present, right? This is what I am. I am from is what uh what is in your past that has influenced you to come to this point. Um, people, places, experiences.

SPEAKER_05 18:32

And everybody would interpret that differently depending on what comes up for them.

SPEAKER_00 18:37

Yeah, for sure. They might say the same word, but it would mean different things to them.

SPEAKER_05 18:41

For sure.

SPEAKER_00 18:41

And then with my voice, I will. That's of course a future thing. So you're here as a poet, right? Yeah, it we all accept that coming into that space. That's that's sort of the baseline. If you're showing up with a pen and paper, check mark your poetry.

SPEAKER_01 18:54

Sure, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:55

So that being the case, you being you and you coming from these experiences and these things, what are you gonna do with that? And so that becomes really the interesting part because then you you get a sense of like a little bit of a manifesto for each person. They may, they may say, I'm going to speak about human rights, I'm gonna speak about um, you know, uh uh international conflict, anything like that. And then you get to see, okay, okay, there you are.

SPEAKER_05 19:24

We're starting to see a little bit of a pattern.

SPEAKER_00 19:27

Yeah. So I'd recommend that exercise. I am blank, I am from blank, and with my voice, I will.

SPEAKER_05 19:34

Oh blank. I love that. That's so cool. And also, you know, reflecting on how difficult it can be for someone to even answer that question.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 19:45

Like for a very, very long, even now, my gosh, I think this happened to me just two weeks ago when someone asked me, like, so where are you from? And I uh like, oh, I like I I don't know how to answer that question. Because there's an entire mountain of stories just in that where I'm from, right? I'm a daughter of migration, born and raised in the Middle East, my homeland is Pakistan. Pakistan only came into existence as a country in 1947, but I belong to the soils of Punjab and the mountains of Kashmir. And but if you're at a wine and cheese thing and someone asks you where you come, you can't get into that story. So I love that this comes from that place of like, ooh, we're going deep dive here.

SPEAKER_00 20:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 20:35

Reflecting on where we're from.

SPEAKER_00 20:37

And you're right, like even in that exercise, it's a lot, it is a mountain that you're trying to pick apart and and find the little stones to put into a little piece. But the the idea is not to capture it all, of course.

SPEAKER_01 20:50

Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

It's to to say, hey, you are a mountain.

SPEAKER_05 20:54

Yeah. And and you got interesting that acknowledgement there. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 20:58

And what do people then do? That gives you them a structure or a place to begin. I guess so. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

I mean, I would say that's like the end of the workshop. That's the end of lesson one, right?

SPEAKER_05 21:10

I mean, that's a big workshop. That would take a long time.

SPEAKER_00 21:13

Yeah. No, we we do it in uh in an hour and a half. Right? So now what I what I would like to do then is make is have that part of a series of workshops, which I've been able to do in different circumstances. Um so the next workshop after that, and if if you see this and you took my workshop recently at the University of Manitoba, this you remember this. But the next one is okay, now now you're activated, right? You're looking at the mountain, you're aware of the mountain. You're awake. Now it's like, okay, let's let's focus on you here now. So then it becomes about you taking up space. And sitting sitting in the space with other people, right? Like imagine we're we're taking a workshop now. Um so we would do some uh grounding exercises, right? Just so that we are aware of the space we are in and knowing that we are claiming some space within that collective space. And then the writing becomes um about let's come with this intention that we're gonna express ourselves to each other. So what uh and this is kind of like a reverse, a reverse way of going at it. Uh, I'm trying to get them to say, what do you want to say to a group of people given the opportunity?

SPEAKER_05 22:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:43

But I I do like a little a little swerve on that. Sure. Because given that opportunity, they'll they'll have an idea, but then there's always that block because I don't know you, right?

SPEAKER_01 22:54

I don't know, what are they gonna think? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

So the exercise becomes to write what you're afraid of seeing and why. Like, what about this space and these people and and your experience with your truth?

SPEAKER_05 23:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

Makes it difficult for you to say.

SPEAKER_05 23:10

Holy moly, like who needs therapy after that, right? Like that is you're building such deep awareness and understanding by even just being able to, well, first of all, being invited to answer those questions. Because how many times does the world even ask you that? Often those are questions you ask yourself or you wonder about it. Right. So just going through that exercise is it's gotta be deeply transformative for people.

SPEAKER_00 23:38

It can be people. Well, the last, the last workshop, the the one I mentioned at uh it was just um two weeks ago, uh, someone uh did come to tears. They they had written something, and they they they of course the the intention is is to share it with the folks there. And everyone went and so did this person, and they they got uh I like the word for clamped. Uh yeah, it's that yeah, but it's like, yep, that's for clamped picture next to the dictionary definition. And and of course, when you're in that space and someone has that, you honor that, right? That's that is what they're expressing in their face and uh in in the shaking of their voice, maybe tears, maybe a trembling of the lip, is just as meaningful and just as real as the words that anyone else is saying. So it's like you got to because that's their expression. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 24:35

And in fact, like we talk about theater and dance and movement as a form of expression.

SPEAKER_01 24:42

Right.

SPEAKER_05 24:43

And so for someone, this has now become like a combination of two forms of expression. If their body's also starting to show what the words are trying to communicate as a feeling.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

Yeah, and and so that that person found that um that confluence of being in that moment, being themselves in that moment, where this thing that was real that even took up physical space in them was now coming out. And so uh they they still got uh the what we do snaps.

SPEAKER_05 25:21

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Right?

SPEAKER_00 25:22

Like a poetry slam. So after everyone goes, we always snap. And and they still got it too because they showed up.

SPEAKER_05 25:28

And yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

And then uh so the so the point being, I'm sure it uh your listeners and you get it already, that was not a failure whatsoever. No, no, that was the opposite. Oh my gosh. Right? So they got there as just a now if if they want to continue with whatever they were writing about, wanted to express, they could do that in their own time and and pick that apart and do it safely and maybe come back. It's their choice. Of course, but now they know what that's like, yeah, and and they can access that again.

SPEAKER_05 25:59

Absolutely. Yeah, and just knowing that there's a place you can go to, you know, mentally, emotionally, and you've been able to go there, and there was an affirmation from someone around you that it's okay, it's still safe to be in this place, it's safe. We can hold your expression, like that in itself, there's so much healing for someone in that. So I'd love to hear about your latest work. Tell me about the little bird.

SPEAKER_00 26:33

Oh, yes, yes. Uh Birds of a Feather, the uh the graphic poem. Yeah. So this is um a poem that uh has been sitting with me for for quite a few years. Uh and uh before I tell you what it's about, uh so my my friend and I got together and we turned this poem into a graphic, a graphic poem, is what we call it.

SPEAKER_05 26:59

Um really stunning, by the way, and I would uh highly, highly recommend someone, anyone, to grab your copy as soon as you possibly can. It's just so vivid, so beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 27:10

Thank you. Yes, and and that's a credit to my friend Adam, who uh is my uh we've been friends since high school. We've bonded over nerdy things, and um uh I approached him with this idea to create uh a graphic novel, graphic mirror of something. And he he does generally he does more kind of pop stuff, like pulp um, yeah, like cartoon characters, logos, designing things, posters, and he's he's really even in his little funny characters and things, they've they've always had personality and they always have some very human expression, almost like a character of like a real life person.

SPEAKER_05 27:56

Sure, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

And uh he picked a poem of mine to do called Birds of a Feather, and um he uh like through this, he I I I just let him have it. Just go and I see what you come up with.

SPEAKER_05 28:10

Artists need that, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

And I didn't know uh I didn't know what to tell him, right?

SPEAKER_01 28:15

Yeah, fair, fair. I figured I was done.

SPEAKER_00 28:18

You figure it out. Um, but what he came back with was some really elevated stuff that that that I I wasn't surprised to see out of him, but was happy that it came out. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:33

And like at the same time, I was blown away.

SPEAKER_01 28:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:36

Um and and so he we ended up telling this story together. So it's a poem about um uh basically about trauma and over overcoming trauma. Uh and the speaker uh is speaking to someone in this poem who is going through it, going through something. You you can tell that there uh there's a line that says um um uh basically describes that uh her eyes are like a coal mine, but the bird isn't singing anymore. Right? And so that's kind of where the birds of a feather comes from. And I and then the next line is we are birds of a feather. Like I see that in you, and I see it in myself. And so this the speaker is trying to help this person. I I say it's a uh a female uh listener because uh when I wrote it, I sort of had someone in mind that I was speaking to.

SPEAKER_01 29:32

Right.

SPEAKER_00 29:33

Um but it's really for anyone. There is the the listener isn't gendered in the poem, so it's applicable to anyone. And so um basically the speaker says, I know what it's like to blank, blank, blank. I understand this, and to say that um you being here is a is a sacred thing, right? That that if I'm not condemned to suffer, that if I have overcome this and have grown and and am able to sustain myself without collapsing in internally, uh more or less, um the same goes for you.

SPEAKER_01 30:10

Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:11

Um, and so this was something that Adam and I connected on, even we connected on, I knew we connected on it by me looking at his art. We never really talked about it, I never really talked about where where the poem came from. He he knows me very well, so he knows my experiences and where, you know, could understand where it's coming from. Sure. But looking at his drawings, like he got it. And I knew that he had been through it too because of how he illustrated um our character that's in the in the graphic novel, which is a little bird. We called him uh Brad, Brad Bird. Okay, who's a director of some um Pixar movies and things like that? I don't know, it came out of um, and so it's this little bird who is um has an injured wing and he can't fly. And he is beset upon by all kinds of beasts of the wilderness. Um in this kind of it's more surreal, like these the you he gets attacked by these hand monsters in the dark of the of the forest, and it's chased out, and then and he's encountering all these um you know uh perilous um and uh things that he must overcome, or or you know, he almost drowns at one point. Um but the but the little bird has holds so much emotion in his face and you see him terrified and you see him struggling, um you know, even swimming with his one wing trying to claw up towards the surface uh until he he successfully gets washed ashore and he finds uh a community of other birds who lend him their their fallen feathers so that he can feel his wing and fly with them.

SPEAKER_05 32:03

Oh, that is so beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 32:05

So I like I didn't tell him to do this, you know. Like he figured that out on his own from from the work. And so we I saw this and I'm like, oh, we got something here.

SPEAKER_05 32:15

We got something. Oh my goodness. I I just love how packed with metaphors that is, and you know, thinking about all of the all these different elements of trauma that this little bird experiences and wonders about. And there's there's such a beautiful story of survival and resilience and and finding other birds who then share. So there's so much there that you can take any part of that and pull that into some sort of trauma learning for for folks, right? Um, and I, you know, when I'm thinking about um a lot of the poetry that I've done has been in that space of trauma healing and trauma learning, and what does it mean? Uh and I remember when I was writing uh when I was writing Gajra, there there's a series of poems that are just a conversation with forgiveness. So, you know, forgiveness is essentially a person. And I remember as I was writing the conversations went from like this rage to like, what is gonna happen if I if I actually meet you forgiveness, like who are you? And so there was there was this anger, and then there was a curiosity later in you know subsequent poems, where it was like, hmm, what is it gonna feel like if I let you in?

SPEAKER_00 33:45

Right. That can be terrifying, terrifying, right?

SPEAKER_05 33:48

And that's the question that the protagonist asks their forgiveness. Like, is it gonna but you know, you've you've helped me hold rage, and that's been important for me because I needed that rage to be able to survive. I kind of don't need that anymore.

SPEAKER_01 34:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 34:05

Now maybe I need something different, maybe I need some softness, and how what is that going to look like? So poetry has this beautiful way of engaging in some of those themes that we may not otherwise know. Like, how do you have a conversation over dinner with some friends about forgiveness? Right. So it's yeah, it's just such a profound way for people to express themselves. So if you could reflect on this for me, given the role that poetry can play in healing journeys and you know, thinking of this this little bird, I feel such like love for this little bird, by the way. So it's I do too. Yeah, so beautifully. And just even reading the description, I was like, oh this is this is beautiful. So the role that poetry can play in trauma healing, what if how do we make poetry more accessible to people? Yeah, what does that look like?

SPEAKER_00 35:09

Well, that is another good question. Because this is I think this really does play into my my practice as a spoken word poet and as uh the the co-director of the poetry slam. So the whole idea of the poetry slam is accessible poetry and and uh a communal space. So um slam poetry um has different forms, different uh formats, but the the idea behind it is that that it is accessible, it has language that is used sort of like uh on the street every day, right? Between folks. It can be elevated and it can draw from um all kinds of different figurative languages, metaphors, and things like that. But the idea is to communicate and and connect with an audience in the moment. Which has a different intention somewhat than page poetry, right? Page poetry uh is is meant to have somewhat more complexity, um different different ways of looking at depth and and how it appears on the page. And so so you write a poem, it gets published, and it's sent away. The reader spends as much time with that poem as they want. Right? They can analyze it, break it down.

SPEAKER_01 36:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:34

Um slam poetry and spoken word deals with more immediacy, where you you want to use language and you want to speak on things that folks can access in the moment. That that when you're talking at them, they're like they they don't go, huh? You know, that they're like, oh, yeah, that's the kind of connection and reaction you're looking for. So so that um that does spur writing that is very upfront, very direct. And of course, then you carry that on stage with you as the the performer, you know, poet, performer. We it's interchangeable to us in the scene. Yeah. Um but you carry that with you because that intention to write for the stage now is being fulfilled. Now you're up there and actually speaking to an audience and and they're their eyes are on you and they're waiting to hear what you have to say. And that is uh both terrifying and empowering and exciting in that moment.

SPEAKER_05 37:46

And I would think also there there's there's a sacred bond, magic there, right? And as a storyteller, I talk about this relationship between a storyteller and a story listener, and somehow being on stage in front of people sometimes can be, you know, I yeah, I know what I'm gonna say here and it's coming for me. And then you just go with it, and other times it's like, ooh, mm-mm. Today it's not that does happen.

SPEAKER_00 38:15

There's that wall. It does happen, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 38:18

That I'm hoping to feel being a performer on stage. So what about I love the accessibility element of it, and I love the almost the urgency of that emotion. It's like it's coming, I'm gonna use it, I'm gonna put it out there.

SPEAKER_02 38:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 38:36

So I I think there that's just really beautifully empowering. What about what about poets from other places? And I come from a long history of like folk music, folk Punjabi music, and like Urdu poetry, and my goodness, one word. I would I would have to take an entire paragraph in English to describe that one word. And uh when I think of our increasing community that comes from all places of the world bringing their beautiful languages and their beautiful selves, how could we make poetry more accessible for them as well?

SPEAKER_00 39:13

Yeah, we we try to encourage uh variety, diversity in in the poets and the poetry, of course. Um now in in our community, of course, here we're we're located here in Winnipeg, we're primarily an English-speaking uh city, uh, with some French. And uh and so that that becomes sort of the the mainstream way. And so if there's someone that's coming from a cultural background, they want to express that, that is definitely encouraged. Nice. Um and I know that there's pockets of uh what you call it, like like cultural groups that that have their own poetry groups that share with each other. I suppose in in English, uh I'm thinking about one poet that uh I worked with recently, uh Eileen Cohen, who is from Iran. And so she writes about Iran and the immigrant experience. Um uh a near a near refugee experience as well, where she uses her own language and she speaks about the settings and the people and the things that that she misses. And and again, you get that you get that distinction between the page poetry where you um get to sit with the word, you get you you see it written, uh, but you don't get to hear it spoken by the person uh who who embodies that culture because that's who they are. And and that becomes kind of a magical thing too, where you know, in our own little sheltered communities where where we come from, our family backgrounds and everything. Now this opens up uh a whole different idea of who's here in the styles, styles and how you wrap emotions in a poem to express them.

SPEAKER_05 41:12

And there's so much like it it's listening to you today has been so exciting because I'm thinking of all the poets that I've had the incredible opportunity to just be in a room and just watch them and hear them and read their words in all sorts of different languages, and what a great opportunity it would be to just bring everybody together and they read their poem in their language and then help the rest of us who may not understand that language understand what's cultured in there, right? And it can be so inspiring for someone who may not speak any of the other languages to go, oh, I think it might be okay for me to share in my language too, right?

SPEAKER_01 41:54

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 41:57

So, what's next for you? What's the next exciting project?

SPEAKER_00 42:01

We're we're we're still rolling with the Poetry Slam. Um, we have monthly events at the Handsome Daughter here in Winnipeg on Sherbrooke Street. And uh we're waiting to hear back on a grant to see if we get some funding for the next year. Um it it it kind of I wouldn't say it doesn't matter if we get it or not, but it helped. Funders don't listen to that. But but we're still going anyway. The the community is still um supporting itself. It's beautiful.

SPEAKER_05 42:33

How would someone find you if, you know, and imagine they're not in Winnipeg or the Winnipeg community? How would someone find out more about you and the work that you do and the slam poetry?

SPEAKER_00 42:44

Yeah, for sure. We we're definitely we got an online presence um on Instagram. Uh we are Winnipeg Poetry Slam, all one long word. Awesome. Um we got a website as well, WinnipegPoetrySlam.ca. Um my stuff is out there. I'm I'm putting more out. Um that's actually my my next goal is to uh record um some some poems and collaborate with some musicians to create some tracks to post online. Um uh I have a show coming up in February uh where I'll be recording my my live set.

SPEAKER_01 43:21

Oh, cool.

SPEAKER_00 43:22

So even if you don't get to come in person, which is the best way to experience spoken word, then at least you get to maybe uh put the earphones on and and pretend you're there.

SPEAKER_05 43:32

Yeah. And there's also beauty, and I I don't want to lose this thought because I'm so excited about this idea. There's also something really powerful about listening to poetry in the voice of the person who's written those words. And, you know, and we always like when we read it, and I love that you called it page poetry, when we read it, we weave our stories with those words. And then when we listen to the person say them, there's almost Like this intimacy with those words that you can't have if you read them by yourself.

SPEAKER_00 44:06

Right. Yeah. It's very true.

SPEAKER_05 44:08

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for spending time with us today. Thanks for having me. Really appreciate it. And yeah, love. We look forward to checking out the show. And we'll share with everyone who's listening where to find Steve and his amazing work. And go get a copy of Birds of a Feather.

SPEAKER_00 44:29

Yes, please do. Awesome.

SPEAKER_05 44:31

Thank you, everyone. Thank you.

unknown 44:33

Good job.

SPEAKER_03 44:34

That was amazing. That was great. That was really nice. Like I loved it. Everything was great.

SPEAKER_05 44:40

Um how did how did you feel about that?

SPEAKER_00 44:43

I feel good.

SPEAKER_05 44:44

Yeah. That's good. Thank you. What a beautiful story.

SPEAKER_00 44:49

Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for uh having me express it.

SPEAKER_03 44:53

Yeah. Oh wow. Yeah. Um so I guess next steps would just be that we uh we'll share.

SPEAKER_05 45:01

Um we'll share. I'm still swimming in your words, Steve. I love I love that little bird so much. There's such endearment. And I love the the kindness and the compassion that you and Adam showed towards that little bird.

SPEAKER_01 45:21

Thanks.

SPEAKER_03 45:21

I often talk about you guys keep calling. I'm just gonna take it. Yeah, yeah, do it with me.

SPEAKER_01 45:27

Sure, sure, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 45:28

I'm not done talking. When when I wrote Vegetal and I would love to give you a copy, I actually pulled out a copy to send with you.

SPEAKER_01 45:36

Yeah, absolutely. I'd be happy to.

SPEAKER_05 45:39

It was uh one of the things that came out so strongly was if if I were to write a letter today to the eight-year-old me, what would I say? And when we think about healing journeys, there's something so profoundly powerful about being able to get to that point where you're even willing to have the conversation with the little with the little you, right? So yeah, I was I was afraid of asking that question while we were talking, but no, not at all. You could write a poem for the eight-year-old you today. I'd love to hear what that could look like.

SPEAKER_00 46:28

Sure. Um I remember I definitely remember I was quite awkward in trying to make friends, struggling with that. Um I was at a new school and never really had uh friends before. So I think it would sort of be like look, you're you you feel alone, but you have all these wonderful things that you're going to discover for for for lack of a better way, by be by being alone, right? In your solitude, you're going to find these things. So the things that um like I remember reading a lot and being big into comic books and movies and fantasy and science fiction and things like that. Uh, I would say like keep going with that and look for more and find people who seem to be into that too.

unknown 47:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:39

Right? Find your people. Um and be as weird and awkward. Uh because I remember I had all kinds of different hairstyles that I tried uh that were even out of style for then. Sure. I mean, for an eight-year-old, I was really trying to be cool. But but I really wanted to see myself as cool.

SPEAKER_01 48:03

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 48:03

More than I wanted to believe it.

SPEAKER_01 48:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:05

So I I think I think the overall the message is like, dude, you're cool. Like, you know, you don't figure it out until yeah much later.

unknown 48:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:16

But yeah, you've been you've been cool this whole time.

SPEAKER_02 48:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 48:19

I love that so much. I love that so much. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, that's sort of the big message in my mind is like kindness and compassion and compassion for ourselves. Yeah. It's more than anything. And and the day we start doing that, it's like it just it's easy to pour that into the world, then. It's easy to pour that understanding and create more places of belonging where we can all be a little weird together and that's okay. You know?

SPEAKER_00 48:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 48:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:52

I like if if there's um a showcase of poets, yeah. We do this often. Try try to get uh everyone on stage and sort of thing. I'm usually the one that goes first.

SPEAKER_01 49:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 49:05

Um I I guess I w whether I program the show or not, peep people put me first. Because when they meet me, they figure that, oh, he's he gets it. He's he's good with being weird and awkward.

SPEAKER_05 49:18

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that just sets the tone for everybody, right? And then it's like goodness.

SPEAKER_00 49:24

And I'm I'm done, so then I can go have a beer. It's good for me.

SPEAKER_05 49:29

So it's also strategic.

SPEAKER_00 49:31

I get it. Yeah, I I get it out of my system, and I don't have to sit there being nervous the whole time either.

SPEAKER_05 49:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:37

Um, and then I come off stage and then I get to cheer everyone else, everyone else on. So that's I'm a big uh cheerleader for all the poets at work at uh Portress Land.

SPEAKER_05 49:47

Yeah, remind me what that date is again.

SPEAKER_00 49:49

Yeah, the next one we have is actually on Tuesday. Tuesday the 28th.

SPEAKER_01 49:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 49:54

It's uh an open mic. So there's there's no it's not a competition. Anyone can sign up. Uh and it's uh if if you are inclined, uh you're encouraged to wear a costume.

SPEAKER_05 50:08

That's hilarious.

SPEAKER_00 50:09

Yeah, I'll be wearing one.

SPEAKER_05 50:10

Only because it's Halloween, or what's the it's it's our annual is that a thing?

SPEAKER_00 50:15

It's our annual, it's our uh annual uh anniversary, but also our open mic where we goof around a little bit.

SPEAKER_05 50:23

Oh, amazing, amazing. Yeah, oh that's exciting. Well, I look forward to coming out one of these nights. I think that just like sounds really cool. I've only recently started sharing the work.

SPEAKER_00 50:36

Yeah, then this is the place for you. Yeah, we a lot of people uh we get new people every show, and they we tell we if I don't recognize them and they come up, it's like, hey, are you you did you sign up? Is this your first time? And I'm like, let let people know about that. Yeah, and then they get the biggest cheer and the biggest support. Amazing. And if they if they get nervous and fumble their lines or something, they get the snaps, which is like a quiet encouragement.

SPEAKER_01 51:05

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 51:07

Very cool, awesome. Thank you so much.